Authentic 365

Living Out Loud, Faithfully

Author, Vice President of the GLAAD Media Institute, and Lutheran Deacon Ross Murray joins Edelman's Gurpreet Brar and Faith McIver in conversation to discuss his life and experiences as a spiritual person within the LGBTQ+ community.

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GLAAD said about Ross's recent book Everyday Advocate: Living Out Your Calling to Social Justice: "Drawing on his own experience, Ross encourages readers to discern their own call to advocacy, learn to identify injustices and respond faithfully by incorporating big and small actions into their everyday lives."

 

Trans Representation at Work

Dani D'Amico, McKinsey & Company New York Partner, joins Christiane Schulz, Edelman Germany CEO and GWEN (Global Women’s Equality Network) Lead, in conversation on an Authentic 365 Pride Takeover.

USA Today recently reported that a review of leaders at America's 1,000 largest companies found that just 10 out of thousands of named executive officers identify as part of the LGBTQ+ community, underscoring the importance of increased representation. In this episode, Dani shares her experience as a transgender woman navigating a corporate leadership role and what it means to be a role model for future transgender executives. 

On the Frontlines for Trans Rights

On the Frontlines for Trans Rights: A Conversation with Rep. Zooey Zephyr and Journalist Erin Reed 

Edelman’s Lauren Gray (she/her/hers) and Lou MacAfee (they/them/theirs) will host this episode, uncovering what it means to be on the front lines advocating for trans rights in the United States with Montana State House Representative, Zooey Zephyr (she/her/hers), and LGBTQ+ Journalist, Erin Reed (she/her/hers).  

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Representative Zooey Zephyr identifies as transgender and, in a recent high-profile incident that sparked controversy, was censured and banned from the House floor after speaking out against a bill that would ban healthcare for transgender youth. Erin Reed is a leading transgender journalist who writes for Erin In the Morning and recently wrote an influential point-by-point rebuttal in response to the alleged Missouri whistleblower on transgender healthcare.

 

Faith at Work

This episode of A365 will discuss religious acceptance in the workplace and how we can all recognize various faiths in a respectful and inclusive way.  

 

Isabel Wong (Hong Kong) will lead the conversation with Eboo Patel, Founder and President of Interfaith America to address understanding and embracing different religious identities in the workplace, and how people and organizations can be more inclusive and supportive of diverse religions around the globe.  

 

Authentic 365 – Faith at Work

Isabel Wong [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Isabel Wong with Edelman, currently based in Hong Kong. Now for this episode we are going to have a deep dive into the topics of religious acceptance, best practices in the workplace for interfaith dialog, and how religious identities are very much part of the broader diversity and inclusion conversation. And joining me for this conversation is Eboo Patel, founder and president of Interfaith America. Eboo is also a former faith advisor to President Barack Obama. So, Eboo, thank you so much for joining us from Chicago. It's great to have you with us on the show.  

 

Eboo Patel [00:00:40] Isabel, it's great to be with you. Thank you for having me.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:00:43] Thanks for joining us. Now, before we kick start the deep dive conversation, in order to set the scene right, I would like to have you help us understand and give us a brief introduction to our international audience about the work that you do at Interfaith America.  

 

Eboo Patel [00:01:01] Sure. So about 25 years ago, I founded an organization called Interfaith Youth Core. Actually founded it when I was a graduate student at Oxford University. And we ran programs all over the world. And the big idea was that, we should, it was going to strengthen the global fabric to bring young people from different religious identities together, to discuss the shared values between their faiths and to act on those positive values like compassion and hospitality and service. As the organization developed, we rooted it in the country in which I'm a citizen of the United States, even though I was born in India and educated in part at Oxford. I'm an American citizen. I've grown up here. I feel most comfortable in this culture and the organization as we would have here in the big idea of the organization whose name is now Interfaith America, but which started as Interfaith Youth Core, is that religious diversity can be a great strength of a nation in a world if faith is a bridge of cooperation and not a barrier of division or a bludgeon of domination. That's the case at city level, at the national level, and certainly also at the company level. And I'm excited to talk to you, Isabelle, about how positively and proactively engaging religious diversity can strengthen the fabric at both Edelman and for Edelman's clients.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:02:27] Mm hmm. Yeah, I do very much look forward to our discussion as well. And I know that for this conversation, we are going to touch on the concept of religious diversity and also religious acceptance. So I just want to get your help to help our audience understand the concept of religious acceptance as well. And why is this so important?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:02:48] Sure. So so religious diversity is just a fact of our world and a fact of most nations in the world. Meaning that there are people from different religious identities who are living in close quarters together, whether that's in the United States or in India or Brazil or Australia or the United Kingdom or Morocco or South Africa. Anywhere in the world you have people from different religions living together, working together, studying together, playing on sports leagues together, etc.. We don't talk about religious acceptance at Interfaith America because we don't ask people from one religion to accept the doctrine of another religion. It's not about acceptance. It's about cooperation. The idea is not that that Muslims who believe that Jesus is a prophet of God, but not the son of God, should accept the Christian doctrine about Jesus. The idea is that Muslims and Christians should cooperate positively. So we speak of religious diversity, should give rise to interfaith cooperation where faith is a bridge and not a barrier.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:03:58] Yeah, I do very much agree with that as well. And the very foundation of it is also fostering a sense of, you know, ability to appreciate spiritual values, beliefs and faith based practices. You know, there are different from opposed by removing prejudices and stereotypes, which is very much the kind of work that you do also. And it requires mutual respect. Now, I would like to take a deeper dive into embracing religious diversity at work, because obviously when it comes to this topic, a lot of people would just be thinking, how can we really do that? And for authentic 365 this podcast, the kind of conversations that we create, are all about how can one really bring oneself authentically to work. And in our view, one must also feel comfortable to show all sides of himself or herself that includes one's religious identity, because religion is very much an essential part of personal and community identity. So. Eboo, from your perspective, should we speak about our religion, our faith at work? And if so, what is an authentic way to approach it?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:05:10] Sure. So, Isabel, I'm in a slightly adapt the question, and I'm going to say that I think it's important for any company, for for employees to feel like they can bring their best professional self to work and that that company is able to serve its clients and its customers and the community in which it is and in the best possible way. So the question for me is not can you bring your authentic self to work? I appreciate that. That's the question of this podcast. That's not my principle question. The principle question is, can you do your best work at work? And if you are Jewish and keep kosher and there is always a mixing of meat and cheese and there's never any kosher food available, you might not be able to do your best work if you are Hindu and are vegetarian, and there is meat in every dish at the cafeteria at work. You might not be able to do your best work if you are Muslim and you don't drink alcohol on account of your faith. In every social event at work involves copious quantities of alcohol, you might not be able to do your best work. And this is why it's important for a company to positively and proactively engage religious identity when it comes to their employees. To ask the question, can employees from different faiths do their best work here? Are there are we do we have an environment that is respectful of people's diverse religious identities? The framework we use that at my organization, Interfaith America is respect, relate, cooperate. Do you have an environment that respects the identities of diverse people, that encourages positive relationships between them, and that facilitates cooperation on common projects? The beautiful thing about companies is that the common projects are obvious, right? The client work that you're doing, the creative work that you're doing, the initiatives and campaigns that you're working on at Edelman, those are obvious. And so you have a shared project to encourage cooperation. And I think this is one of the reasons that companies can really be leaders in interfaith cooperation efforts, because you naturally have employees from diverse religions present. You naturally facilitate positive relationships through a close environment, and you have shared projects in which to encourage cooperation. There are many parts of who we are which are totally legitimate but but are probably not the best fit for the workplace. And what comes to religious diversity? A good example of this is conversion. It's perfectly legitimate for Christians or Muslims or somebody from a different religious identity or in fact a philosophical worldview like atheist who seeks to bring other people to their faith or worldview. It's a perfectly legitimate activity, but that's not what you want happening at a workplace. The question is how do you engage religious diversity in a way that encourages people to bring their best professional self to work again? People should be able to wear clothes that are appropriate for their religious identities. People should be able to eat the food that is required by their religious identity. People should have a place to pray. If they need to pray, they should have the appropriate days off if they need to take days off for religious holidays, etc. That's a positive and proactive engagement of religious diversity at work that encourages people to bring their best professional self without inviting dimensions of their identity, which are perfectly legitimate in other spaces and churches or mosques or temples, but not appropriate at work. So I would I would offer a framework that is different from authentic self or wholesale. I would offer best professional self.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:08:51] Mm hmm. Yeah. I really like how you mentioned that. And essentially, religious beliefs inform a person's identity, way of life and everyday activities and behaviors. And religious diversity can essentially make a workplace really inclusive in the sense of allowing opportunities for everyone to, you know, work through biases. And then essentially it will come into this positive impact that would result in diversity of thoughts, freedom of choice of beliefs and expressions. Now, obviously, when it comes to introducing and creating a safe space for religious diversity, it it has its challenges. So through the years that you work in this space, what are some of the common challenges that you've seen when there are multiple and diverse faiths represented in the workplace?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:09:41] I think the first thing to say is that in virtually every workplace, when we're talking about the corporate environment, particularly in multinationals like Edelman and the kind of companies that that our clients development, you're going to have religious diversity naturally. You're going to have Muslims and Jews and Christians and Hindus and six and behind and Buddhists and atheists. You are naturally going to have religious diversity. And those people from different religions have important disagreements. They have disagreements a doctrine like the nature of Jesus and the disagreements and ritual practice, like what is permissible to eat. Many Hindus don't eat meat at all. At all. And of course, many especially don't eat beef because of that, the role that cows play in the Hindu faith. Muslims, on the other hand, not only eat meat quite regularly, but actually do it as an important part of several of our rituals, including Eve. That is a simple that is a simple fact that that's a disagreement, pure and simple. The important thing about religious diversity and other dimensions of diversity is to not pretend that differences and disagreements don't exist. Of course they exist. It's to say that those disagreements and differences are not going to prevent us from working on other important projects. I think a company has this opportunity, the ability for people to disagree on some fundamental things like doctrine and ritual practice, and yet work together on other fundamental things like campaigns, initiatives and projects that are essential to the mission and success of the company.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:11:20] Mm hmm. Yeah. And I like how you just mentioned there that disagreements could be expected in different forms, and they don't have to be viewed negatively. Now, obviously, in light of the recent events that put anti-Semitism in the spotlight, the Wilders remind you that religious intolerance and ignorance can cause great harm. So I want to get your perspectives on, you know, how should businesses act around these conversations, right? Should they be taking a stand? And if so, how can they do this more strategically?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:11:56] So you want your you want your employees to feel safe and welcome. Right. And when there is a very public and ugly rise in anti-black racism, as in the case of the murder of George Floyd or anti-Semitism, as has recently happened in the United States with comments by Kanye West and others, it very naturally makes some people, people of that particular identity feel hurt and marginalized and upset. And so that is not good for a company. I also think that companies. Should, generally speaking, not be taking stances on everything. You just can't do that because the world is a place of 8 billion people and there are always going to be conflicts and there's always going to be injustices. And you can't be in a position of of fielding a thousand different petitions a day and deciding which ones you're going to send a tweet out about or send a statement out about. I think that a company ought to decide which items impact its employees, its customers and its mission. So if an anti-Semite is one of your clients, unless you are a law firm defending their First Amendment right, you should think very hard about what you want to do about that. If that person is proactively spreading an ugliness and a bigotry that hurts lots of people, including your employees and your other customers. Again, if you're if you are in the free expression business, I think that the I think that that question might be fielded a bit differently. But broadly speaking, bigotry is a bad thing for business. It's a bad thing for society. It's a bad thing for your employees. It's a bad thing for your customers. Companies should steer clear of that and do it in a way that doesn't that doesn't sign you up for making a statement about every issue on the planet.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:14:20] Hmm. Now I want to get your perspectives and insights into some of the best practices, because you previously served as a former faith advisor for US President Obama. Can you talk about some inclusive faith practices that you shared with Mr. President or other global leaders that you've worked with? You must navigate leading complex social structures and human landscapes that could include religious beliefs.  

 

Eboo Patel [00:14:48] Sure. So I'd like to talk with President Obama and everybody from people who lead local churches to two people who lead global multinationals. I like to tell them that that we should think about diversity, work through the metaphor of a potluck supper. A potluck supper is is an event in which the food is not provided by the host. The host instead provides a space where people bring their own dish. And the thing that I love about a potluck is that a potluck only exists if people make a contribution, if people bring their dish. Right. And so you want this at work. You want your employees to come to work as if it's a potluck. You want them to make a contribution, their gifts and their talents and their efforts of their energy and their labor. That's what makes a workplace work, is when people bring their talents, bring their dish. You don't want everybody to bring the same dish. You don't want to you don't want a potluck of only biryani or only months off or only tacos or only casseroles. You want a diversity of dishes? That's what makes a potluck delicious and interesting and flavorful. And actually, it's not just the array of dishes that help a potluck be wonderful. It's the combinations between them. It's when somebody is crusty. Bread recipe from Eastern Europe goes just perfectly with somebody else's spicy dip from the Middle East. And so a company works well when it is inviting the contributions of diverse people and creating a space where creative combinations can exist. A company ought to be aware of the barriers to some people's contributions. Sexism, racism. Homophobia, Islamophobia. Anti-Semitism. These are bad because they are not only violations of individual dignity, but they are also barriers to people's contributions. There's anti-Semitism in your workplace. Jews are unlikely to be able to bring their best dish if there's Islamophobia in your workplace. Muslims are unlikely to be able to bring their best dish. So reducing barriers to people's contributions is a good thing. And the other thing is you want people to take responsibility for the whole space. The host can't do all the work and a potluck can't do the setup and the clean up and be responsible for getting the conversation going. The community has to do some of that work. Some people have to show up early to do the setup. Some people have to stay late to do the cleanup. Everybody's got to take responsibility for making sure that that the safest space, the space is safe and that the conversation is healthy. So I like to use the metaphor of a potluck supper when talking about diversity work, including religious diversity.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:17:35] Right. And a follow up question for that is, you know, when it comes to this interfaith. I look right. People with different religious backgrounds, like you mentioned just now. I expected to bring their dishes to the table. Do you think atheists and agnostics should join these conversations? Should they be bringing the dishes to the table as well?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:17:54] Oh, of course. Of course. I mean, that's not even that that's not even, you know, a controversy or a moment of pause. People of all faiths and philosophical worldviews are welcome. You absolutely want people who are atheist or agnostic or spiritual seekers or in between religions or whatever it might be to feel like they can do their best work for you at work. You want to be able to have clients from Zoroastrians to atheists, so to speak. And so, you know, we, we tend to call issues about religious diversity. We tend to use the language diverse orientations around religion, which means everything from the different kinds of Muslims in the world, Sunnis and Shias and Sufis, for example, to to people who who don't have religious belief at all and orient around religion as nonbelievers. So that's our kind of formulation that that we believe is more inclusive of atheists as diverse orientations around religion.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:18:57] Yeah. Indeed. The conversation is all about, you know, trying to understand each other, not really to challenge or dispute. So that's a very important mind set that we should all remember. Now, I would like to take a slightly reflective lens on, you know, the work that you've done over the years and ask about your experience, you know, working in spaces inclusive of all faiths, you know, how has that that work really impacted your faith and your connection with others and vice versa? For example, how did those connections inform the work that you do over the years? Has it evolved?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:19:33] Yeah, that's a great question, Isabel. So I've been doing interfaith work for 25 years, 20 of them professionally. In fact, my organization had just celebrated its 20th anniversary. And and I do interfaith work in part out of my own commitment as a smiling Muslim. The Koran says that God made us diverse nations and tribes, that we may come to know one another. There are many examples in the life of the Prophet Muhammad made the peace and blessings of God be upon Him, where he had positive partnerships with people of diverse faiths. In fact, he invited Christians to pray in his mosque, for example. And so there is a muslim inspiration for me to do interfaith work. And absolutely, the people that I engage with from different religions, I learn from their faith. I'm inspired by by their by their faith and their commitment to their faith, even when I don't fully agree with their doctrine. And so the word interfaith actually encapsulates much of the meaning of our effort here. Inter means the interaction between people from different traditions. Faith means one's own relationship with one's religious tradition. And so interfaith is about how our faith guides us to have better interactions with people from other religions and how those interactions with people from other religions actually strengthen our faith, our our relationship with our own religion.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:21:01] And I know that you run your own podcast and on your show you like to answer the question, how does our religious understanding of the world inform how we live and work together? Would you please answer that question for us today?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:21:15] Sure. So I think that the center of Islam is about mercy and monotheism. It's about believing in one God and that that God creates all of us. And our common ancestor is is Adam prophet. Adam, who who is the the the father of us all. And so there is kind of a human family feeling in that. And so that's a really important part of my of of my faith is the idea that that I am inspired by my faith to positively engage with diversity and do interfaith work.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:21:50] And I know that you are an author of multiple books, and this year you also launched a new book. Congratulations, by the way. And it's titled It's We Need to Build Phenix for Diverse Democracy. Can you speak to what the book is about and what readers can take away from it, obviously, without giving away too much?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:22:08] Sure. Well, I do hope that I appreciate you asking about my book, We Need to Build, and I hope that your audience here is interested in it. So a lot of my book is about a positive and constructive engagement with diversity. It's about how our societies can feel like potluck suppers that welcome the distinctive contributions of diverse people and in in facilitate creative combinations and enriching conversations. I don't like the melting pot. Hot metaphor for diversity. And I don't like the battlefield metaphor for diversity. I much prefer a potluck supper. I write about that a lot in my book, and I write about constructive approaches to social change. Social change is not about a more ferocious revolution. Social change is about building a more beautiful social order. And we need to defeat the things we do not love by building the things that we do. And one of the things that I admire about the private sector is, is the manner in which you you do and have the opportunity to build strong institutions which elevate people, both your employees and your customers, and hopefully the communities and societies that you live within. And so there there are lots of examples in my book about how nonprofit institutions do this because I'm part of the nonprofit world. And I also believe that companies have the opportunity to do this as well.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:23:34] And finally, to wrap up this conversation, we normally ask every single guest of ours on authentic 365 this one question, Eboo, how do you define authenticity?  

 

Eboo Patel [00:23:48] Well, for me, it's it is being honest with myself about what inspires me and trying to live that inspiration out in the world. And I'm inspired by diversity work and I'm inspired by constructive approaches to social change. I'm inspired by religion, and I'm inspired by my own faith. And I'm inspired by improving people's lives. And so and so that for me is is my authenticity. And I'm proud to I feel very blessed that I'm able to live out much of that in my life and inspired by my kids and my wife and my family and and having a balanced life between work and family and faith and community and recreation, that's that's also part of an authentic life for me.  

 

Isabel Wong [00:24:31] Yeah, definitely. If we want to be inclusive, diverse and comprehend how we relate to each other, we need to continue to expand our understanding of different cultures values, and that includes various religions, beliefs and practices. That was a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your time and insights with us. Eboo, It was a pleasure.  

 

Eboo Patel [00:24:53] Thank you so much, Isabel.  

 

Beyond the Binary: Gender Identity and Expression at Work

This episode of A365 will discuss gender expression and identity in the global workplace.  

 

Rafael Franco (Brazil) leads the conversation with Edelman leaders to address several topics, including understanding and respecting pronouns, recognizing differences in inclusive language globally, navigating gender expression in the workplace and more. The episode will also explore the experiences of those within the LGBTQIA+ community in sharing their identity at work and in the world. 

 

Transcript

Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:01] It's who you are to work after hours and back at home. Exploring every layer. Finding out what makes you uniquely you. And letting that shine back out into the world. It's authentic. 365 A podcast that takes a glimpse into how some of the most inspiring people among us express themselves and make magic happen. I'm your host, Danny Jackson Smith, VP at Edelman by day, community enthusiast and lover of the people always. On this episode, we are engaging our colleagues across the globe in a conversation on gender identity, understanding that how gender is addressed and acknowledge shifts based on your location. Let's join the conversation now.

 

Rafael Franco [00:00:51] Hello. I'm Rafael from Brazil, Adama San Paolo. And we're here today to discuss to explore the stigmas around gender identity and expression, to go beyond the binary gender identity and expression at work. And for this conversation I have here, for different persons around the globe, we have Monika Tik Tok from Brazil whistles. She's a senior account manager. I will ask everyone to say your pronouns as well as tragedian director from Malaysia. Lauren Gray, Senior Vice President, New York Crisis and Reputation Risk Advisory. And Nick Nelson, Senior Vice President Austin. Welcome, everyone.

 

Nick Nelson [00:01:34] Glad to be here.

 

Monica Czeszak [00:01:36] Happy to be here, too.

 

Rafael Franco [00:01:38] So we just start with an open question to everyone. So one identity is important to us all, and should we be respected by everyone knowing the formal definition of gender identity and expression? What do those terms mean to you personally and your response? Again, please say your personal pronouns. Mo, you can you can start, please.

 

Monica Czeszak [00:02:03] Okay. Hi, everyone. Glad to be here. If everyone, I'm Monica. But let's see Mo for short. As you heard, my name is a little tricky. My pronouns are actually all the pronouns. And like the lady on the mall, that puts everything on the shopping carts. So he / she / they I'm comfortable with all of those. And to me, that's a special question because expression to me it's whatever I feel like that day. Sometimes it's braids, sometimes it's baggy clothes, sometimes it's nothing at all. I'm also very forth on getting out of that image that everyone that's nonbinary only wears pajamas. And I think expression is just feeling comfortable with yourself and being your best self every day, and that's particularly special at work. And I think respect only starts with us looking at each other and getting to know each other and asking questions and having safe spaces to ask those questions because it's not easy. Sometimes I'm very feminine, so people might assume I use she or her. Sometimes I'm very masculine, so people might assume similar he. But it's very fluid like gender and like expressions. So we have to be safe to ask each other questions and present ourselves as we are.

 

Rafael Franco [00:03:28] Okay, great. What about you, Asra?

 

Ezra Gideon [00:03:31] So yeah, my pronouns are he / him. I've recently transitioned from female to male about two years ago. And I guess, you know, I'm. How do I say this? It is more true to me being a he / him than it ever was before, you know, being in any other pronoun, to be honest. So it's most comfortable for me and this is the pronoun that I feel most myself. It's a little tricky here because the Malaysian language does not have a he / him / they / them, its all dia means they / he / she. So it's you know, it's it's an amazing language. Trouble is, in Kuala Lumpur, corporate language is still English. So but it's still kind of, you know, a yeah, there's a mix of of Malay and English. So it's it's not as difficult, I think, for us here in Kuala Lumpur as opposed to parts of other parts of Malaysia. But yeah, it's a it's those are the pronouns I'm comfortable within and I'm happy to to use whatever pronouns someone tells me they want. I will use that because I respected that, that they know themselves better than I do. So, you know. So, yeah.

 

Rafael Franco [00:04:52] That's great. Well, I'm making myself vulnerable here because I'm not a known non-native English speaker. So it's hard for us Brazilians as well to understand this gender way of speaking in English. So I will hand over to my English colleagues. My English speaker, English- speaking colleagues learning and make plays well.

 

Lauren Gray [00:05:17] Thank you so much. I actually wanted to start by just sharing a definition of gender identity and gender expression, just in case anyone who's listening in doesn't know those definitions. And these come from the LGBTQ+ advocacy organization GLAAD and its media reference guide online. Reporters can use that guide to help better understand and cover LGBTQ issues. For gender identity, it's really a person's internal, deeply held knowledge of their own gender. Everybody has a gender identity. For most people, it matches the sex that they were assigned at birth. For our transgender community members, it doesn't align with sex assigned at birth. And many people's gender identity is that of a man or woman. But for other non-binary community members, it just doesn't fit neatly into one of those two categories. And just to give you a little bit more context on that, there was a recent study by the Trevor Project that found that one in four Gen Z LGBTQ community members are non-binary with an additional other 20% questioning their gender identity, and one half of those Gen Z non-binary individuals actually don't identify as transgender. So what we're seeing is really a sea change in the breadth and variety of language that's being used to describe and understand how nuanced gender can be. For me, my pronouns are she her, hers. But as a member of the LGBTQ community, hearing people share their pronouns and seeing pronouns included in emails, signatures, or in zoom display names. It's really a signal of a more diverse, inclusive environment. And I think it's one of the very important things that our colleagues can do in the workplace as an outward sign of support for our community and for those who are also looking for other ways to be a stronger ally. I would encourage you to get to know your LGBTQ colleagues, acknowledge their partners or spouses or families in the very same ways that you would people outside of the LGBTQ community and read up on things, look at the news, watch what's happening as things develop, and try to acknowledge moments of significance to the community, moments when you have terrible setbacks and moments when we celebrate great progress.

 

Nick Nelson [00:07:38] Nick Yeah. Lauren Thank you so much for that. I think, you know, it's always helpful here and be reminded of my pronouns are he is and my name is Nick Nelson since I didn't start with that. I think one of the things that I am still learning is the conversation we're having right now. You know, I work in multicultural DEI space, and so I've had the privilege to learn about gender identity, gender expression, but I've also had to acknowledge my own privilege as a gender male and not having to understand people who don't identify in the same way. And it's been a really rewarding experience to learn so much and have conversations like these and facilitate conversations like these for clients and for our colleagues. And so I think what it means to me is just a learning experience still. You know, I'm 33 years old and I'm still learning so many things as if I was still in school. And I think that's been the great thing about this particular workplace, but especially the work that I do is it gives me an opportunity to educate and to bring clients and colleagues along on the journey with me. But it also provides an opportunity for me to learn more and then be more supportive of my colleagues who may not be who may not identify it the same way or feel confident or comfortable identifying the same way as I do. So I'm really glad to be in this space with you all and have this discussion because it's long overdue and it's always important to talk through and kind of hear the perspectives. And I am looking forward to walking away from this with a new perspective that I can then bring into my work and support everyone, you know, regardless of their walk in life.

 

Rafael Franco [00:09:35] And we have mentioned our journey to understand this this theme better. And also Lauren mentioned the pronouns on our email signatures. And this awake me about Monica because I have wrongly assumed her pronouns in the beginning as she / her only. And we never have talked about that before. So Mo, is there a best way to to make sure we are always using pronouns properly and inclusively, especially in a global firm like Edelman?

 

Monica Czeszak [00:10:12] Yeah. And I think that's the funny part because when you have different problems, sometimes it falls back to you to let people know about your names, but you're not always safe or comfortable with sharing. So when you have a widespread initiative like the email signatures, like Lauren said, you're showing other people that it's okay to introduce yourself and say your problems and ask people for their problems as well. To me since I relate to all of them and none of them. It's like whatever rings that they it's fine. I feel very glad when someone uses he for me because it shows me they're trying to use other problems with me or when they talk in a general neutral way, but at the same time I'm comfortable in all those spaces. So I never really made the effort of going out there and saying to people, Hey, this is my problems and I'm comfortable this and comfortable with that. And once we had the signatures, it was like, Oh, I can let people know. And it kind of blew my mind a little because it was so simple and so easy. And at the same time I had a few emotional exchanges. Rafael was one of those people, but other colleagues came to me and was like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I never knew. Are you okay? Should I say things different? And it never occurred to me before that people might be struck that way after knowing my problems, that they did something wrong or something was not right before. So I had a lot of very emotional and very good exchanges with my colleagues, and I tried to make sure they knew that it was okay. We were getting to know each other better and I was happy. Now they knew and they were trying to be more. I don't know, inclusive of me. And it was very good for me to have those conversations because it opened doors for us to know each other better. Go ahead, Nick.

 

Nick Nelson [00:12:22] Yeah. I just wanted to build on that one. Thank you for sharing. But too, it's something that I speak about in client forums and in our employee forums where inclusion or being inclusive is not difficult, but it is intentional. So using the email signature was such a simple thing that started these conversations and got you such reactions, but also gave you an opportunity to express that. That's a perfect example of that. You know, inclusion is always intentional, but it's not always difficult and it just takes people like our company or like other companies who have done that, starting these initiatives where you can put your pronouns in your email or like we've done in this conversation, starting with introducing yourself and your pronouns. So you've established that already, and that was just such a small, simple step. So I'm really glad to hear that it was that impactful for you, where it was starting some new conversations, drawing some reactions and possibly an educational opportunity for so many of your colleagues.

 

Monica Czeszak [00:13:35] Absolutely. And it's completely intentional. And what I like most about it, it's at the end of those conversations, what we came to realize is that it has to be intentional and it has to be like a day to day exercise. In Portuguese, every word is gendered, like objects are gendered, every pronoun is gendered. So we are still figuring out how to be gender neutral and what are the rules and how to express it. And it's hard. You have to practice, so you have to know that. You have to use it and try to use it every day. So you get to that place in which it's easy and common to be gender neutral as well. So having those conversation was great for me in getting to this place where other people were also comfortable in asking and learning and trying to exercise. It was great.

 

Rafael Franco [00:14:28] Yeah, and as most said, and in Portuguese we have children conversations in general, everywhere, gender, but we are figuring out ways to do it. And so, for example, we have inclusive language and we have neutral language. One of them is not like formal. So we cannot use a broadly because it's not common for people to understand. But there are some ways that you can remove the gender from the phrase, rephrasing it. So that's one way that we that we tried to do here in Brazil. And Ezra, inclusive language, as I was saying, translates differently in different countries. And can you help better help us understand this dynamic based on your local experience?

 

Ezra Gideon [00:15:16] Yeah, sure. I guess in when, if and when we speak Bahasa Malaysia, which is to me, how many times, how many percent of my day spent speaking Bahasa maybe 20, to 80% of my time is speaking English because, you know, in Kuala Lumpur, almost everyone speaks English. In fact, everyone does. It's a matter of the degree of English or how well they speak it. But I only spend about 20% of my time speaking Bahasa Malaysia. But it's a mix and match when you're is very close friends and it gets very, you know, how do you say gets more when you're more familiar with people that gets a little bit less structured. So then, you know, it's a mix of English and Malay but I do think that people who speak Malay, the Bahasa and the Malay language tend to be less concerned over pronouns. And it's just they / them generally. And when they speak and when they say dia means, you know, they or he or she. So it doesn't really affect the composition of the person or the wellbeing of someone. But, but again, you know, how that works for us is still we speak a lot more English than we do Malay. And it's hard to educate people in a country where it's illegal to be trans or gay. So they just won't. They just won't because I don't have to. Because it's illegal anyway. You being you. Yeah.

 

Rafael Franco [00:16:45] Sure. And Lauren, we were talking about places where it's illegal to be LGBTQ plus and not even in countries where it's it is recognizable and it's okay to be gay or lesbian and trans and etc.. We know that not all LGBTQ plus employees feel comfortable sharing their experiences sexual orientation, gender identity, or expression in the workplace. So how can we recognize that and still be supportive to our colleagues, of our colleagues?

 

Lauren Gray [00:17:23] So you're absolutely right about that. And that's actually really a surprise sometimes to people in the US. There's data from the Human Rights Campaign for 2018 that found that about 46% of LGBTQ employees are closeted at work, which is actually usually very, very surprising to people. And we really want people to be able to be their authentic selves at work. Some of it is an issue of representation. There was some really interesting research as well from McKinsey in their 2020 Women in the Workplace report that found that in corporate America, LGBTQ women specifically only make up 2.3% of entry level employees, 1.6% of managers, and even smaller numbers at more senior levels. So to help counter this and help bring people out at work, we really need to focus on ways that we can increase visibility at work and representation for business. It's great to think about recruiting and retention and what that could look like, and we actually had a really interesting experience recently at Edelman. We created this task force called Out Front. It's an LGBTQ task force. It's really meant to help to. Will clients on complex LGBTQ issues. And as part of that task force, we created a team chat to make sure that people were in the loop and that we were communicating on issues that were raised and bringing in people with appropriate expertize. And we found that that chat really brought people together across offices. It was amazing and people started communicating on it all the time, sharing articles and stories and life events and wedding photos and pictures of birth of new children, etc.. And it was just this really incredible way that really organically people came together and started to increase visibility. So as much as we can do things like that, I think that will really, really help bring people out at work.

 

Rafael Franco [00:19:21] And this, I guess, changes our culture, culture of the company, right. And the culture of the company is impacted and informed by the people who work there. So, Nick, how can we all be inclusive and supportive to our to all our colleagues who wish to or wish not to fully express their gender identity at workplace?

 

Nick Nelson [00:19:46] Yeah. I think the most important thing is to create a safe space, right? Create a safe space for our colleagues at Edelman and beyond to show up the way that they want to. Right. And for some people. I would say that doesn't necessarily mean that they're closeted. That means that that's not a part of themselves that they want to share in the workplace. And I think we have to create the space and grace for that. Right. You know, I think the term that we use a lot is authentic self. And I think authentic self is subjective and relative to every individual. And so, you know, if you choose to share these details with me. Great. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. If this is not important to your workday or if this is not a part of the identity that you want to share in any part of your life. Great. I still like you anyway. I still enjoy working with you. And so I think that's the most important thing, is just the space to be yourself and then not, we have to be careful. And this is something that I see a lot in my work. We have to be careful not to create a box or terms for what showing up as your authentic self means. Right. You know what that means for Lauren, for example, may be very different for me, and that's not because anyone is shy or afraid. But we have to consider that people are bringing a lot of different experiences into this moment that we're meeting them. You know, I have no idea what has happened to you guys before 21 minutes ago when we started this recording. Right. And I don't know what's going to happen to you after. But I have to understand that there's so many things contributing to the way that you are showing up in this moment. And so all I can do and all we can do is make sure that we're being supportive colleagues and meeting you in this moment and helping you show up the way that you want to be your best self.

 

Rafael Franco [00:21:54] That's very powerful and very, very true. And so I would get back to Turing because we have talked about added initiatives in during this conversation. And Adam Eco is one of our employee network groups. Adam And it was created to help to good turn on community for LGBTQ close employees and allies and provide a place and space where employees can share, learn and grow. So how can an employee group serve to good community for or benefit non cisgender employees at work?

 

Lauren Gray [00:22:33] It's a really great question, and I'm glad that you asked that this year. Edelman Equal has we've had several key priorities. The first is educational programing. So, for example, after the overturn of Roe v Wade, we hosted a conversation with Jim Obergefell, who is the lead plaintiff in the Supreme Court case, the marriage equality case. And we talked about what these developments might mean for LGBTQ community members and for marriage equality broadly. We also talked about monkeypox this week with Dr. David Nabarro. So we did a briefing, public health briefing on it, and we talked about considerations for employers and answered questions that people may have about what's happening and what that looks like. And I think this educational programing is really important because it doesn't just benefit our broader Edelman community. But if you are an LGBTQ employee and you want to have a voice in helping shape the conversation that's happening at Edelman, in the knowledge on these issues in your own workplace, you can really be part of planning what some of that looks like. We also advocate for employees. We want to make sure that we are on top of what employee benefits should be happening for LGBTQ employees and making sure that we're included in data that Edelman is collecting so that we're being appropriately represented. And then also just provide a space to really connect and get to know each other and advocate for each other and support each other. Sometimes it's nice just to have fun together, but other times it's it's also really nice to have built up strong relationships with other LGBTQ employees. If you have questions or want to pressure test certain things or just to talk about things that have happened in the workplace.

 

Rafael Franco [00:24:14] That's great. And Asra, you have started your major media transition a short time ago and not within the most ideal condition, as your country is not welcoming to the full diversity of the LGBTQ community. And you have told me that Adam and I have have have had a very powerful space in this transition. So can you share a little bit of your experiences and specifically your how your work environment has impacted your transition?

 

Nick Nelson [00:24:46] Absolutely. I think, you know, it took a while before I discovered, you know, you know exactly you know, what my life would would be had I had taken this journey, for example. It's a lot of obstacles. But, you know, I, I spoke to my my mother and I told her everything. And I said, if it means I have to quit, I will have to do it because it's I can, you know, cannot not live, you know, being myself. But, you know, we took it on together, actually. And I think this is very important. It's because of that kind of leadership that you feel you can go to someone you're safe for the most. You know, Muslim is Muslim muslin is Muslim I Muslim. So it it mean you need to trust this person, you know? But, you know, after all of that, long story short, we managed to find a way to bridge that gap by I said, I'm going to come out, we're going to stay and fight this together. Whatever the system is, we will will face it together. And I came out to the colleagues and I think to Ipac. And so I think online when we were all doing the pandemic at that time, and it made me so much braver. And she was right there next to me and she's saying, going, going. That's fine. You know, and it's so many people involved. It's it's not just my M.D., but she was that person for me. And had I not had someone like that to be able to help me in on a day to day, even struggle with with the outside world, because coming to Edelman is like a whole different world. When I go back home, it's a whole different world, right? So but it's made me mentally healthy, so much better. I'm so much better for it. Being able to do what I do every day. I think I've even gotten better at my job, I'll be honest with you. So, so, so that that I think was very important. But it's not just leadership. It's the whole team. They're so polite. They ask me, you know, if they're saying something wrong, they're just amazing. It's it's hard to express. But yeah, it's been amazing. So we have two sets of laws in Malaysia. One is for Muslims, which is the Sharia law, and another is secular for everybody else who is not Muslim. And I can never change my gender marker, obviously, because if as soon as I do that, it will be, you know, it's illegal. Right. But they're going to they can try and test and test you on a day to day basis if they want you to have a look at your ID card and it doesn't match with the way you look or how you express yourself, it can give you a hard. But I've been very lucky. I've been honestly luckier than most and most grateful. Grateful for that. But it's harder for a lot more people here. I'm in a good position. I could probably get a job easier than some transpeople because I've been known in the industry before I transitioned. So yeah, it, you know, there's more to it than that. But in a nutshell, it really helps to have that culture of support from top down and it helps so much.

 

Rafael Franco [00:28:05] Well, I think I can speak on behalf of everyone here. We are so glad to hear that you have this help and have this opportunity of transition and be yourself at at the workplace. And as we are discussing the pronoun usage, for example, and the respect for gender identity and expression, they are very important in life and at work. So more can can you give us an overview of why it's so important to respect pronouns, why these tiny words are so important and so impactful on our lives, in our day to day work.

 

Monica Czeszak [00:28:47] Is a little emotional, but I think what we need to start off is just stripping away everything else and just realizing that we are all human beings that want to be seen. We want to make connections, we want to be cherished. We want to love and be loved. And that's the center of everything. And. Having that in the workplace, which is, let's say, most of our day, it's the biggest slice of our day when we go to work and we talk colleagues and we talk to clients. It's so important because. Imagine spending like a third of your life not being seeing and acknowledge every day. That's that's hurtful at a human level. So having that space where you can be yourself and like Ezra, find support and have people acknowledge and see you for who you are is very powerful because that gives us the confidence and the courage to go out there and face whatever we are facing on the other aspects of our lives as well. And this week I was with our lead in Brazil. We went to an event to sign an open letter to support LGBT inclusion in the workplace alongside other companies here in Brazil. And everyone that's standing at that event and talking to each other, there was those moments when you'll find someone in the audience and you look into their eyes and you could see that connection, the power of that connection, of being seen and being heard. And two of the things that made me the most emotion out there was that cry out for us to be brave. So let's create a safe space and not be afraid of creating more safe spaces to each other. But also when people would find each other and say, We know it's hard. We know it's little by little, but every little thing makes life so much better. And this is so important in the workplace.

 

Rafael Franco [00:31:00] That's true. That's totally true. And we are talking a lot about how inside a company we can do to to make our colleagues days better. But since we work in the client services business, we and just like colleagues, clients can also project their discomfort or express express microaggressions towards people of the community. So Nick, if you can speak to navigating sensitivities with clients and protecting the company and employer relationship, also how we can can we protect our teams and ourselves to make everyone feel safe and comfortable of showing up as they authentic self?

 

Nick Nelson [00:31:47] Yeah. Yeah. And Ezra, I'm definitely curious to hear what you have to say about this, but I think in my experience, one thing that I am learning and observing is that especially with clients, sometimes they genuinely don't know when they are projecting these things. I think, you know, if it's bias showing up, it's some of those kind of, you know, inherent things that they may have brought to the table. And so my experience, which has been pretty successful in the past, is just addressing it head on, you know, stopping in that moment and saying, hey, I heard you say this thing. What did you mean by that? And that is a very intentional question. As we were talking about earlier. It creates space. It creates a space to talk through it. No judgment, but also to educate and kind of point out why that might not be okay or point out, you know, what a different way to articulate that opinion may be, but also to ask questions. You know, I, I work with a bunch of people who don't work in the DEI or multicultural engagement or things like that. And so I have to understand that a lot of people don't know. A lot of people don't sit in forums like this and have these conversations. And so with clients in particular or even with colleagues, you know, I think we have a I don't want to say a responsibility, but I do think we have an opportunity to try to get to it in that moment. I think where we may need to do some more work is letting it linger or letting it pass. Right. Because then you've not only signaled that whatever this person said was okay, but that's you're okay with it, right? And so I think there's a way to get into that conversation and have it come out of it with an educational moment, an opportunity. And then to your second question, I think. I think it's such an interesting position to be in. Right. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, creating space for someone to show up however they want. Right. And if they are out and proud, as we say, great was lean into that. Let's build it. You know, I want to shout out Laura and the equal team for all of the work that they're doing, not just, you know, with the yards these, but then bringing in some of those experts to talk about the impact on our community, but then also how that impacts the broader community. Right. I don't think perspectives like that are hurt. And then as we're all transitioned to you, but one thing that you said that I always kind of keep in my brain is brave. I've never had to be, quote, brave. Right? I exist as who I am. I show up and take of space. I've not had to go through that experience that you have and I've not had to do it publicly. I've not had to kind of navigate the things like that on top of, you know, the cultural situation that you're in. So I applaud you and people like you who are willing to bring those educational opportunities to us. And like I said to Lauren and Mo, you know, all of these things that we just don't think about, you know, that I don't think about because I don't have these question marks. I don't have things that may signal something else to someone. And so I really just want to appreciate you guys publicly and openly for that kind of work and how it advances this exact conversation that we're having.

 

Monica Czeszak [00:35:38] I just wanted to add that. I think not everyone can relate to how huge that is. But I think we all when we go back to ourselves, we know about fear. We all fear something and the size of the fear and the importance of having that backup. But another thing I would say, we know things are hard in Brazil. We have a lot of violence against the trans community especially. And we know in different parts of the world we have different regulations and laws. So it's very different in contexts. What kind of fear you have when coming out, when reaching out for help and making those connections. But I think it's important for us to also see the hope in that, and they will hear it in your voice. They won't see your face, but the little flesh in your eyes and you're saying how much better he was than you expected and all the support you get. And I think we have to keep that in mind because we know there's a lot of bigoted people. We know there's a lot of conservative people. We know there's a lot of. Evil in the world. But there's also hope, there's also connection. There's also friendship and and help sometimes where you least expect and people can change and people can learn and we can build those networks that are accommodating and comfortable and resourceful to others. So I just wanted to bring out hope from your story, because I think we need to remind ourselves of that.

 

Rafael Franco [00:37:15] That's very powerful. And I'm I'm clapping here on mute does not disturb your speeches. So headed now to the end of our conversation, I would just like you to get your final, final thoughts. And we navigate this a little bit during our conversation. But just for wrapping wrapping up, what can those who are not part of the community do do to be better allies and accomplices for the LGBTQ plus colleagues at work? So, Nick, if you want to start.

 

Nick Nelson [00:37:53] Sure. Happy to start. I think allyship is so important because, you know, while I think this group, you know, we are having this conversation publicly and openly, I think we are at a certain part of our journey. Right. I think there are people who may not be there. Right. And so that's where allies come in. And I recall a conversation that Edelman hosted during the chaos of 2020 where the gentleman presenting said, you know, there's allyship and then there's accomplices. Right. So are you going to stand beside me or are you going to stand in front of me? Right. And some of us just need someone to stand beside us, which I believe we would consider as an ally. But then some of us who may not be as advanced in our journey or kind of still understand where we fit into an organization or to society or culture may need an accomplice. And so I think understanding where our colleagues are, creating the space to have conversations about pronouns, about workplace identity, about all of these things is where you can really understand where you fit on that spectrum. So is it, you know, walk beside me, walk in front of in front of me. And then sometimes for some of us is get behind me, move out of my way, let me clear the pad so I can make it so much easier for others who come after me. Right. And so I think that's where our colleagues, rather than whether or not they're in the community, honestly, can be the most helpful, is just really understanding. You know, is it that accomplice is an ally or is it just, I got your back. Let me know what you think.

 

Rafael Franco [00:39:38] Right.

 

Lauren Gray [00:39:39] I guess I just wanted to build on a point that my made earlier that I thought was such a good point. And I think that's that we don't expect perfection from people and being allies. And I think that's a really good thing to raise that we shouldn't let being perfect become the enemy of the good. It's enough for many people within the community just to see that you're trying, just to see that you're interested and trying to build a connection and doing what you can to be supportive. I think often people are really afraid of making mistakes in some of these conversations, and I think it's just good to affirm and I was glad that raised that that hurt a lot of people within the community. We just want to see you trying to really, really appreciate that.

 

Rafael Franco [00:40:28] That's totally true, Ezra.

 

Nick Nelson [00:40:33] I think for me, what I've noticed and what I see around me, it's always good to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think I am braver because I believe in the good of people more than anything else. I'm not brave because, you know, I didn't even see anything coming. So really, I don't know what to be scared of. But really, it was the fact that people were relatively good. And if you do try the and if they reject you, it's fine. You have to learn to heal a little bit from that. But you can educate and sometimes the more you can do that in a big way and I see this with clients as well is, is, is to yeah. To allow them to to make mistakes also and be and correct them in the in the not in a good way because they sometimes don't know. They, they don't know even what they're doing, especially, let's say for for some place like in Malaysia, you know, I mean, we're not living on trees. No, that's not that's not it. But but a lot of this awareness of the community, it's not part of the conversation on a day to day. To give them a chance. And, you know, that's that that's that's what I have.

 

Rafael Franco [00:41:49] That makes the work better a more.

 

Monica Czeszak [00:41:52] I think the first thing that comes to mind when we talk about allyship and. Our job, as well as a communications firm, is to really talk more and make it safe to talk more, because I know it's a very far and honorable place and I can speak from experience throughout my life. I made so many mistakes growing up after I grew up, as I developed as a professional and as a person. And sometimes it's hard to have those conversations, and sometimes it touches into memories or situations that you're not ready for. And there's no rush. You can take your time. You can see if, when, where it's good for you to talk about it. But as an ally, make sure to signal that you are there. When the person is ready and talk about what you're thinking, raise questions and participate because it's what we do on a day to day. As a firm, we talk to our clients, we talk to society, we talk to our colleagues. And that's part of the experience itself, to be open and to reach out and use everything. Your experience in learning and hearing to build something better. Because I like to say to my colleagues, when I talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, it's a journey so it doesn't really have a destination. We keep building up on the conversations and experience we are having.

 

Rafael Franco [00:43:28] That's true. And when you're in the position of being an ally, you don't need to wait to be ready. You go with fear. You just make mistakes. But few certain that you need to be there for people that you care about and your colleagues and the people in your life. So just be there and listen and have this conversation.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:43:53] And that's a wrap for this episode. Many thanks to you for talking with us. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast. And until next time, keep it authentic all day, every day. Special thanks to our team behind the scenes.

 

The Power and Potential of Authentic Connection

True connections must first be rooted in trust. In our latest Authentic 365 podcast episode, our hosts Dani Jackson Smith and Delicia Tan are joined by a panel of external experts to discuss the power and potential of authentic connection and how it can help build bridges to partnerships, sponsorships, new opportunities and more.

 

Featured in this episode: Carlos Correcha-Price, Chief Communications and Marketing Officer at eMed Digital Healthcare; Janaye Ingram, Director of Community Partner Programs and Engagement at Airbnb; Donald Knight, Chief People Officer at Greenhouse Software; and Natalie Rizkalla-Kamel, Intellectual Property Lawyer, Partner and Registered Trademark agent at Gowling WLG.

 

Transcript

Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:01] It's who you are to work after hours and back at home. Exploring every layer. Finding out what makes you uniquely you. And letting that shine back out into the world. It's authentic. 365 A podcast that takes a glimpse into how some of the most inspiring people among us express themselves and make magic happen. I'm your host, Dani Jackson Smith, VP at Edelman by day, community enthusiast and lover of the people, always. For a global day of belonging, me and my fellow co-host, the newly appointed Edelman, Hong Kong CEO Delicia Tan, explored the power and potential of authentic connection with an all star panel. This conversation highlights the process of building true connections and how to remain authentic as they shift at different phases in your career. Our guests include Carlos Correcha-Price, Chief Communications and marketing officer at Image Digital Health Care. Janaye Ingram, Director of Community Partner Programs and Engagement at Airbnb. Donald Knight Chief People Officer at Green House Software. And Natalie Rizkalla-Kamel, intellectual property, lawyer and partner and registered trademark agent at Gowling, WPLG.  

 

Delicia Tan [00:01:21] I'll kick off with our first question. True connections must first be rooted in trust. What are some of the ways that you've worked to build trust with colleagues, partners, or even communities? Perhaps, natalie, would you like to get the ball rolling?  

 

Natalie Rizkalla-Kamel [00:01:36] I work as an attorney in an international law firm, and there are so many different kinds of relationships in that environment where building trust and connections are so important. One connection that I do dedicate a lot of time to is building connections with associates who are junior to me. I try not to be just that work provider, but I try to be a mentor by action and not just by name. What I mean by that is, as I was growing up in this law firm, I had those formal mentors that were assigned to me. But then I chose who those informal mentors would be, and those were people that I trusted. And so what I do to try and be an effective mentor is make it known that both my physical and virtual door is always open. I reach out to them for catch up sessions. I get them involved in interesting initiatives and look for ways to advance them by maybe sending a note to management on what a great job they've done or nominating them for awards. Internal and external to the firm. And these kinds of connections are so crucial in such a high stress environment, because you need to feel like you're a part of a team. And it increases morale and keeps people in this field of law where we're seeing the great resignation and so many people leaving. So I do really value and spend a lot of time on that kind of relationship. But what I wanted to talk about a little today is this new way of making connections that I started with two of my partners. We started a LinkedIn newsletter called Taking Up Space. We're three female, diverse partners with seven kids between us, and we all have distinct experiences about being diverse women, trying to make it in our careers, about parenting. And over the years, we noticed there's a lot of obstacles, a lot of struggles and inequity in the field of law. But we really didn't do anything or say anything, and we just wanted to fit in and not really show we're different because we're just sort of grateful to be part of this profession. But we finally had the courage this year to launch this newsletter without getting express permission from our law firm to do it and to just break the silence on being open and honest about the struggles that we faced and continue to face being diverse, female partners in a large law firm. We talk about our successes, but also setbacks and give advice to a younger audience. And I have to say, being transparent and open about our struggles in a profession that doesn't really encourage that was scary. We were worried about backlash from our firm and from the profession as a whole, but we decided that this is what we're going to do as our own personal brand and being authentic and really trying to effect change. And we would go for it, and it's turned out to be a pretty gratifying experience. We connected with so many people because of this newsletter. I think we brought humanity back into law, and we've just connected with women and men and those people junior to us and and former clients and now new clients, which I can speak about a little bit later. But that was this new way of forming connections that I think was pretty pivotal in my career this year.  

 

Delicia Tan [00:05:29] Most definitely. I think that's really cool that, you know, you took the opportunity and really then seize that that space to really not ask for permission, but to really do what was right in terms of making that connection and driving that further, which is related to another question that love to ask Janaye. Janaye, sometimes people may feel led to assimilate or mask who they are to build connections. What are your thoughts on this and why is authenticity important?  

 

Janaye Ingram [00:06:00] Yeah. Well, thank you for that question, though. I think it's it's it's a hard thing when people feel like they can't be authentic. Right. They have to they have to show up in a different way. And specifically, I think when a lot of times when it comes to marginalized folks, you feel like you cannot show up and be your true self. You have to somehow pretend that the aspects of you that make you different or unique within the larger majority, you need to minimize those things. And I actually think that that's really a detriment. I think when we explore and showcase the things that make us unique and the things that make us different and live as our authentic selves. That really is a strength because it allows people to to learn and to discover things about themselves, things about you. And so I encourage people not to try to minimize the aspects of themselves that are different or, you know, even things that we're working on. Quite frankly, I think when I think about authenticity, I think the things that make someone truly authentic and make people feel like someone is truly authentic is being vulnerable. And that includes talking about your weaknesses, not just talking about your strengths and showcasing the things that you're really proud of, but also acknowledging that, hey, we're all human and we all have things that we want to work on. And so leaning into that, being vulnerable, saying when you make a mistake, being big enough to own up to that, I think it's about being honest. And I know sometimes when we talk about being honest, especially in work, you might get a project or your boss might ask you to do something that you really don't want to do. And I think even in those instances, there are ways that you can be honest. There are ways that you can have the honest conversation and share. You know, this is not something that I am, you know, really excited to do, but I understand the need for it. And so I'm willing to jump in and do the thing that you've asked me to do, even though I might not feel like it's a strength of mine. And so things like that, where, where we're able to be honest and we're able to say, you know, even even when we don't want to do something, we're able to share that in a, in a non brutal way. We talk about brutal honesty. Honesty doesn't have to be brutal. Honesty can be handled in a delicate way. It can be handled with tact. But I think honesty is another part of being authentic. And the last one, the last thing that I think about when I think about authenticity is managing expectations. And there's this whole notion of, you know, don't don't, don't under-promise and or sorry, don't overpromise and under-deliver. You want to do the opposite. You want to show up in a way that's bigger. But I think even more than that, I would actually say it's about managing those expectations and helping people understand what you can and what you can't do. And not saying, Oh, I'll do, you know, I'll give you the moon and the stars and really you can't deliver on that. So I think for people who feel like they cannot show up in and be their true selves, it really limits their ability to be authentic. And I think that that comes at a cost because when people think that you're not authentic, it impacts the way that they treat you, it impacts the way that they deal with you. And I think it potentially even limits the opportunities that you have, the growth that you can have. So tapping into your authentic self and really recognizing that there's strength and power in even the weakest part of the thing that you think is the weakest part of you, their strength even in that and in acknowledging that and it will allow you to go a lot further.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:09:43] That is powerful. I love the words that I'm hearing already in terms of honesty and courage. Carlos, question for you, or at least to start off with you, we know that connections and relationships change over time. And so when we consider authenticity and having courage and honesty, how do you see those connections evolving and shifting, and what's a situation where you had to navigate something like that?  

 

Carlos Correcha-Price [00:10:09] So, look, I mean, I think the more things change, the less they change in a way for relationships. I mean, I think relationships take real hard work. And, you know, what I do see shifting over time is the inability for people to connect at a deeper level. I think if we kind of try to create a parallel to the world of consulting, which most of us, you know, are or have been, there is this idea of being, you know, good, generalist. You go one mile wide and one inch deep and you become this pseudo expert in a number of different things. But that doesn't work for relationships. Relationships take a lot of work, and you have to go one mile deep, one inch wide with every single person that you come across. And I find that social media, in a way, creates an ocean. But but in a way, we're deluding that ocean in the in our ability to, you know, to really dig. And find out, you know, who is the person that we're relating to. So if I go back to, you know, to my years at Edelman and in other places, I find that really trying to figure out who the person is that you're relating to. Not the manager, not the colleague, not the peer, but who the person is can get you really, really, really far. And what I mean by that is, you know, something Janaye spoke to, which is vulnerability. I think that is everyone's superpower. And what a tremendous moment to be alive for for all of us in that we're able to speak our truth and that we're rewarded for that in many ways. You know, in some quarters you may not be. But, you know, I think there is an openness to this type of conversation and this ability for people to be their authentic selves, not only at home, but outside in their communities and and at work. So I would seize the moment if that was, you know, the environment in which I grew up with, you know, over two decades ago in the professional world, I feel like I would have done so much better. And I just think that if you bring that to every relationship that you can and you go that one mile day, you'll be able to, you know, to really extract from it the best possible outcome that you can. You don't need to have 2 million followers. You don't need to have five. You don't need to have 100. But if you have a core group of people who really know who you are, those people can lift you up. And then as you go forward in your career and in your personal relationships, you should do the same for others.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:12:32] I love that. That doesn't matter if you have a million followers or if you have, you know, ten great friends. We still have the power to impact and have influence. Donald, I want to pivot this same question to you, but thinking about something you said yesterday about the melting, right, like how we consider the world, the U.S., a melting pot. But you had something really special that you added yesterday.  

 

Donald Knight [00:12:55] So we often talk about America through this lens of being a melting pot. And I think one of the dilemmas that I have in that I've started to watch as I've gotten older is this idea that communities are not melting with one another. Right. And so they have some of the problems that we have today that we've had 100 years ago is simply based on the fact that we haven't taken the time to create proximity with other people and build bridges with other communities. It is very easy for folks to self segregate based on interests and even based on ethnicity and things of that nature. And so I really try to challenge folks around us to be people first and to think about how are you melting with other communities? Because that's where you find that folks feel comfortable or more comfortable being the most authentic self. And at least for me, like at each place that I've been able to work at, I find that there are people who have, in my opinion, created these spaces for me to be authentic in the way I try to try to like put that in the words is like it's like oxygen being around those people. So folks like Trisch that if Trisch ever calls me, I'm always going to do whatever Trish wants me to do because she's oxygen for me. Paul Saiedi is oxygen for me. Cynthia Negron is oxygen for me. But the reason why is because they took time to create proximity with me and they found ways to say, Hey, look, I know we're from different parts of the community, but what we're going to do is we're going to find ways to melt with one another. And to me, that's beautiful. Now, I'm not originally from New Orleans, but for those that have been there, you know what a good gumbo tastes like. And the beautiful thing about gumbo is that all those ingredients are mixed together. And so that's how I kind of view the world. If you look at the world through that lens, it's like all of our communities are different ingredients, but once we start to melt together, oh, my goodness, bon appetit is a phenomenal, phenomenal gumbo. So that's what I would challenge other people to do here.  

 

Delicia Tan [00:14:47] Here Here, Donald, and we all like a nice, warm bowl of gumbo that really envelopes you and really nourishes mind, body and soul. Right. So again, building on that. Natalie, back to you again. How do you see building trust impacting our internal corporate communities and client relationships? So really building on what Donald is talking about, the people who provide the oxygen for others within that same organization.  

 

Natalie Rizkalla-Kamel [00:15:14] Yeah. So in terms of building trust and and how that really impacts our communities and client relationships, I think that, you know, just going back to to the newsletter and everything I've done recently is, is because of what I've learned through this newsletter and, and people all of a sudden building trust in, in me because and my partners because we're being vulnerable and we're showing our struggles is that people just start to trust us more. We have women that have come to me and said, you know, just coming back from maternity leave, saying I just don't I didn't think I could do this and I don't think I can do it anymore. I'm really struggling. And then when I read your newsletter, I feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel and you know, they just relate to me. Similarly, I've had after I wrote an article about my parents and their immigration story and how they've had a positive impact in my life and in my career, I had someone internal say, Well, I think you should run for management firm because we need good people in in these high roles. And I'm so far away from ever being in management. And so that was just eye opening for me. And then lastly, I had a former client who he read the article about my parents and what I said about my dad, and he said, I hope one day my daughter talks about me like that. And within weeks, I became a current client. You sent a big mandate to me. So I think like building trust and vulnerability and opening yourself up to people, they will. It causes an impact in the sense that you are for women, you're opening your you're you're providing hope and inspiration. And then for clients, they just it'll allow for good opportunities for you because they know that they can trust you.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:17:36] Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Just in terms of opening up and creating that vulnerability, I think it can be really challenging at times to even know how you want to open up or what you want to talk about or where you want to start. Donald, question for you, in terms of advocates and accomplices and allyship, what does that look like and how is authenticity and trust wrapped into being a good ally, a good accomplice, creating space for others? Right. Just interested in that sort of balance because we're wanting to be vulnerable. We're wanting to connect.  

 

Donald Knight [00:18:12] Yeah, it's a phenomenal question. By the way, I'm stealing that question for our people team conversations. I just wanted you to know that I think it's a phenomenal question. I believe there's three types of people in those different groups. I believe advocates are folks that will build a bridge for you to cross. I believe accomplices are people who are willing and courageous enough to cross the bridge with you. And I believe allies recognize that on the journey that we've been on, that we might not have had bridges in the first place. And when I look at my own life and I think about like how folks have poured into me, that has been the reason why I look for ways to pour into others, because I've had people who have literally created bridges for me to be able to grow in my career and even grow in my personal life. I've seen people who have been courageous enough to walk through some of the most difficult times in my career with me as an accomplice. And last but certainly not least, I've been able to see leaders who may come from different backgrounds, and they recognize that their journey might have had less headwinds than what I might have had. And so from that perspective, I think I've personally benefited from that. I've also started to look at my own career and only invest in companies that have those three people present. And I'm in an in a in an abundance. So many other reasons why I joined Edelman in the first place is because I recognize that there are people there. Part of the reason why I left Edelman and joined Greenhouse is because it's baked into everything that we do, right? So at Greenhouse, we recognize that many of the reasons why people can't be their authentic self inside of an organization is based on a flawed hiring process. And so our founders sought out to create a hiring process that eliminates or minimizes as much bias in the hiring process as possible. And so what ends up happening is at the core of our product is this process of belonging and how do we have structured interviewing that doesn't allow for Carlos to have a different experience than Jim? Or how do we make sure that Jenny is also seeing her strengths highlighted and illustrated in questions as opposed to see them as flaws? And so that is the major reason why I have joined this organization. And we continue to look for ways to not only enhance that product, but add additional products that allow for folks to be able to see advocates, accomplices and allies. The last, but certainly not least, I would point out, is we recently just changed our workforce diversity goals. And part of what we called out is this thought process around allyship. And the reason for that is if you start to look. The make up of the countries at least that we actively have talent today, which is primarily in the U.S. and in Ireland. What we found is that like everybody that some companies may call underreport underrepresented communities. Like they don't necessarily make up the majority of our population. And so there's a huge responsibility here, right, to like not only educate folks on what allyship looks like, but like continuously engage them and then give them an opportunity to measure the success of the impact that they're making. So that's how I would answer that question. Danny, I hope that was pretty straightforward.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:21:35] That was spectacular. And if you're still in our question, I am stealing your answer, just so you know.  

 

Janaye Ingram [00:21:41] Could I jump in on this one? Thank you. Yeah, this I love this question and I love Donald's answer. And it really, you know, so much of the work that I've done even prior to Airbnb around advocacy and activism has is really, you know, excited by this question, particularly the notion of. Allyship, which is so incredibly important. And we're talking a lot about allyship right now within corporate spaces within the world. Quite frankly, people want to understand how to be great allies and allyship is so important. And I think the way that Donald framed it of understanding, you know, where a bridge might not have existed, understanding the headwinds that, you know, certain people have faced in their life that may have prevented them from getting to certain places or maybe made it made it more challenging, even though they persisted and they went forward and they accomplished a thing. The thing that I really want people to walk away from in this conversation, though, and this is the activist in me screaming is that, just acknowledging that is not enough. If your actions do not change, because if you say, I recognize that so-and-so had it harder and that is the period that comes at the end of the sentence. I want you to step further. I want you to move to that advocacy role and think about the ways in which you can start building that bridge for that person. What are the things that you can do that help remove some of those barriers that that person might have in the future? I want you to start thinking about being an accomplice. I want you to start saying, how can I sponsor somebody, not just mentor someone? We talk a lot about mentorship, which is important. Mentorship is incredibly important. But sponsorship giving someone air cover. Promoting them when they're not even in the room. Giving them opportunities that they didn't even know were a reality for them. How can we do that? How can we step beyond just that allyship? And there's one that you didn't ask about, but I'm going to insert it here because I think it's important. And that's the role of coconspirator. You're not just going to walk with me. You're not just going to build that bridge. But you're going to think with me and you're going to design the future that I see for myself, with me, and you're going to leverage your own power to do it. That coconspirator role. That's that's. I'll admit it's next level and it's it's tough to get to. But I think allyship is important. And we want people to be allies. But I want you to take your allyship a step further, because if we're truly going to embrace this notion of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, the goal of belonging is the thing we really have to move beyond just saying. I acknowledge that you've had a challenging road before you and say, I'm going to help you overcome some of these obstacles. I'm going to use the privilege that I have to make sure that maybe if I can't help you, I'm going to help someone else who might be like you or might be different from you. But I'm going to help someone else. And that's the thing that the activist in me was screaming right now. But I love this question and I love this answer, so just really excited to add to that.  

 

Delicia Tan [00:25:05] Indeed, Janaye. It definitely something that that's truly inspiring and something to aspire to. Carlos If I could get you to build on that, what do you think the elements of moving from allyship to advocacy would be and how do we create safe spaces for people to be able to do so within the workplace?  

 

Carlos Correcha-Price [00:25:26] Yeah, awesome. I was I was really excited to jump in, but then I figured, okay, well, we're all too passionate about the bridge building. So, so here's what I'll say about the bridge and on about, you know, where you know where to go with with that idea. I mean, I love the analogy. I love like, you know, how all these different kind of pieces interconnect. But I think at the at the, you know, at the core of it is is intention. And I think, you know, bridge to Nowhere, still a bridge to nowhere. Right. You have to be intentional about what it is, you know, that you need about what it is that you're asking for and about what it is that you're willing to do for others. Right. The moment that you don't have that authentic conversation, that realization about what it is that you're seeking, then it becomes, you know, a little bit of of a sleeping over a slippery slope. Right. In the sense that, you know, even those who mean the best for you are going to be unable to help you unless they have the clarity of thought about what it is that they need to do for you. Right, so if I could go back to, you know, many years in my career. I mean, I wish I had the clarity. I wish I had, you know, that intention behind some of those relationships. And I think I've been able to, you know, to grow up and develop that over time. And as I, you know, kind of now mentor others. You know, I'm very, very clear in my first question about what it is that we are doing together. Right. Why do you need from me? And then once I have that clarity of thought, then I can go in and do it right. You know, my biggest fear is that as I grow into my career, I get in the elevator. Well, I mean, for the past couple of years, the virtual elevator and the people were not telling me things anymore. Right. And then I at that point, I knew that something had happened, right? I knew that something had shifted and that I needed to figure out a way to break through it so that people would tell me things. So I would encourage all of you as you walk into that elevator with those who can play any of these, you know, three roles, or they got coconspirator one, you know, be intentional about what it is that you want and then communicate it openly so that, you know, the moment that that elevator opens, right, and you go to your separate ways, everyone is clear about where do you need to go from there? So that's the best way that I would. As for that question, you know, I think, you know, be true to your goals, be true to what it is that you're there to provide for others and then be true to the ask. Right. There's nothing wrong with asking. There's nothing wrong with wanting. Right. What's wrong with is, you know what's wrong oftentimes in. This up, some of these interactions is the lack of transparency about what it is that the parties are out to get from one another.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:28:16] Yeah, I think that level of transparency is something that we need to continue to lean into and examine with ourselves. Right, because that transparency is the vulnerability. Right. And the more you do it, it becomes more of a superpower. So I do want to you know, Natalie, we're looking at how do we draw that connection at different levels, right? As a manager with your employees, as a company, but also outside of that.  

 

Natalie Rizkalla-Kamel [00:28:39] Yeah. So it's this it's so much more about for me right now and my purpose and my intentions is more it's so much more than just my work and and what happens in my career. It's, it's it's creating the impact and inspiration that I never had growing up. I was always hiding who I really was and just being a workforce and doing my work. And and I feel like now that I've reached a certain level and I feel like I've succeeded, even though I struggled along the way, that I can have an impact to help diverse people in this field. There's not a lot of diversity, especially in the field that I'm in and intellectual property and and in intellectual property, you usually, usually have to have a science and engineering background to get into the field. And so I would say there's probably maybe 20% women that actually make the partner level. And so having three diverse female partners speak about their careers and give advice about how to advance and how to be true to yourself has created an impact. I'm hoping it's still in the process. I mean, we just started in January, but I feel like it's it's creating an impact in the field generally within intellectual property and the legal field. So I guess, yeah, that's that's outside of my corporate community. That's the impact I'm hoping about being building trust with my peers and in the community.  

 

Janaye Ingram [00:30:34] Well, I think, you know, getting engaged outside of work is something that is definitely critical. Right. People want to to be seen and heard and they want to see and hear people who look like them, who have similar experiences. I think so much of what Natalie is talking about and how her newsletter sort of took off is because there were women who didn't feel seen or heard that, saw her, heard her stories, and it resonated. And I think so much of that exists outside of what we're talking about in the workplace. It exists within local communities, it exists within, you know, similar type communities within the broader community. And so it's really about creating that opportunity for yourself to meet other people, but also to advocate on the issues that you're passionate about, that you care about. Those things don't just exist. Any issue that you're confronting or any problem that you're trying to solve doesn't just exist within the halls of whether they're virtual halls or real halls of your workplace. They exist in the world. And I think for us it's about stepping out into the world and also carrying that work forward, not just again during our 9 to 5 or nine to whatever hours you work, but really, you know, embracing it within our lives. And I think through that, we're able to amplify the voices that aren't being heard, the people who may have been further marginalized, who aren't experiencing, you know, the same level of privilege that we might be. And so it's creating those bridges. To go back to our previous analogy.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:32:11] I love that it's funny because part of my motto has always been build a bridge. And so like I've heard building bridges on this call so many times, it is such a strong affirmation.  

 

Natalie Rizkalla-Kamel [00:32:21] It's so ironic because I used to be a civil engineer in my previous life and I actually designed and built bridges.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:32:28] So yeah, it's such a great metaphor, right? Because there's there are sometimes obstacles we need to cross or just connections that we need to make, that they need care, they need attention. All of the things that you guys have been bringing up, I think is so crucial and so vital.  

 

Donald Knight [00:32:43] Part of creating that proximity are building bridges outside of the workplace means we have to do what Carlos said is and that's be intentional. So one of the things that we do here in Atlanta is we host me and this young lady named Robin, who works at Equifax. She's the CEO of Equifax International. We host these things called proximity dinners, where we literally invite one person who we have proximity with, but they don't know anybody else. And then when they get there now they're forced to create proximity with others. And so you've had people who were like phenomenal an esthetician sitting next to people who are like VP's, sitting next to like celebrity barbers. And so you're we're intentionally curating this space for proximity and bridge building to happen. I totally challenge people to do that because even in doing so, what we found is that in choosing your favorite restaurant, you may go to restaurants that don't allow you to really see the full fabric of the community. So we're even intentional about what spaces we choose to dine in when we're trying to create bridge building. And so for me, like, that's huge because if you only do this at work, that's an issue like the pandemic has showed us that work and regular life are now very much blended. And so I would challenge us their authenticity. I don't think I can do authenticity in three words, but I promise it'll be a one liner. Like for me personally, authenticity is a daily effort for me to release who I believe the world wants me to be and really embrace who I truly am. And like every day that some days are easier than others, but to me it's more of an action. It's something I have to wake up every day and be very intentional.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:34:16] Powerful. Powerful. Carlos, how would you define authenticity?  

 

Carlos Correcha-Price [00:34:21] I mean, for me, as self-aware it is. I mean, there's a story, right? It probably wouldn't make as much sense in English, but I'll try it. So, you know, when there are stray dogs in the streets. So this is like taking me back to, you know, to Colombia maybe three decades ago. And the story goes that there's all these stray dogs, right? This pack of dogs that are stray, and then they're just kind of walking the streets. And all of a sudden comes animal control, right? And they're all only picking up dogs and then they're chasing these dogs. And these dogs are is running and running a running, running. And then a cat sees all these dogs running and the cat starts running with them. Right. And then they run four blocks and all of a sudden the cat just stops and then says, What am I running for? I'm a cat. Right. He wasn't a dog. He wasn't going to get picked up. And then the moral of the story is that, you know, oftentimes we're running to something or running from something. But the self-awareness about what it is that we're in that race is what's key. And and I think that authenticity is about, you know, stopping and having the wherewithal to, you know, to really dig deep and say, okay, well, you know, what is it that I what is it that I that I mean, how do I belong and how do I choose to belong? Right, And, you know, I kind of wanted to continue to run with those dogs, like more power to it, if that's how he identifies himself as. But at the end of the day, you cannot have authenticity without the ability for you to, you know, to really, you know, kind of figure that piece out. I would encourage everyone to, you know, to spend some time, you know, doing so often times, you know, we just get, you know, kind of pushed, you know, along with, you know, everyone else in, you know, in all these different expectations that are there for us to, you know, to fulfill, you know, whether they're societal or cultural or whatnot. And I just think that, you know, the superpower that, you know, we will all be able to, you know, tap into to reach our fullest potential is that vulnerability and that ability to, you know, to just understand, you know, who it is that we that we are at the core.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:36:29] All right. Janaye and then Natalie, same question.  

 

Janaye Ingram [00:36:32] Yeah, authenticity for me is really being introspective and tapping into who I am at the core, who God has designed me to be, and tapping into that creative creator energy. But more importantly, it is about allowing that person. And Donald kind of said it said something similar, allowing that person to come forth into the world regardless of what society tells me I am limited to do or limits me and places on me regardless of how other people encounter me, knowing who I am, who I am, and how I am showing up and just living and walking in that every single day. So that is what authenticity means to me and Natalie. Yeah. So I think we're all in agreement here. I think it's that first step of really figuring out and knowing who you are, and that's actually not always easy. It took me it took me a while to figure out who I was and then and then just telling the world who you are in terms of your beliefs, values, positions, principles. Don't be afraid or be ashamed to tell the world who you are. It took me a long time, just like we work as lawyers, probably like every single day. And it took me a long time to tell my work provider to go senior to be, Oh, I can't work Sunday mornings because I go to church, you know, now I'm just. Like three church Sunday mornings. I can't I don't I can't. I can't work, you know. So I just people need to know who I am and I'm not ashamed to show it.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:38:16] I love that. And one of the things that resonated with me as you guys are talking is that who you are and understanding that who you are today may be very different than you were yesterday and will definitely continue to transform in the future. Aside from your core values, there just may be other things that sort of ebb and flow.  

 

Janaye Ingram [00:38:34] For anyone on the panel, what are some positive indicators that authenticity is being embraced in the workplace? Donald, perhaps if I could point to you first and for anyone else to jump in on that.  

 

Donald Knight [00:38:47] Absolutely. So I I've said this before. I believe it starts with the hiring process. But to make sure that it's present, like so many times, I've had some friends that have gone through an interview process and then they join an organization. They were like, This is not what I signed up for. Like it was completely different. I think part of it is just reading like glass door or places like that, but it's actually going a step further. And personally I believe in two way street conversations. And so asking folks there to really speak about the culture, like if if you see folks, if they use words like assimilation as opposed to acclimating like probably a sign that they don't necessarily want folks to embrace who they truly are. I think the other thing that I also recognize is, like I asked folks like, how are you creating these spaces for others? And what I have found is by asking that and A, it's very telling to see what they believe to be an inclusive space for people to feel like they belong. But it's I think it's one that it's on us. The average person spends 90000 hours working before they retire, and so that equates to about a third of your life. You should be very intentional where you spend a third of your life, and you should you should go beyond the regular, structured interview process and ask other folks inside of the business, tell me about that space. Tell me how you're able to be authentic. Tell me how they make you feel like you belong. Because that's why I have found the best places for me to work, especially, you know, here recently. So that that that would be my $0.02 for other folks.  

 

Carlos Correcha-Price [00:40:30] If I could jump on this super quick. I mean, I just think you don't have to look very, very far for some of these indicators. I mean, just just look at this call, right, that the company that you work for, Great, is creating a space to have this conversation. I mean, to me, that that's magnificent. And there's four other organizations there that felt like this was important enough, you know, to stop doing whatever it is that we were doing to come and talk about this. So, you know, I feel like if you can multiply this, you know, by, you know, any any number out there, then then we're doing something right. And and I feel like the world is opening up to do this sort of thing, you know? And I feel like, you know, you are now on the receiving end, you know, on this panel. But I think you have a responsibility of, you know, passing the ball forward.  

 

Natalie Rizkalla-Kamel [00:41:22] I just like to jump in, too. I think some really good indicators of a of a workplace that embraces authenticity is to just look at the leadership. And if you look at the leadership and you see a diversity in leadership, you you become aware of that that that company or that law firm do embrace authenticity. And we recently at our firm had a huge overhaul in our leadership. And and so I see a lot of good positive change here because of that.  

 

Delicia Tan [00:41:57] Indeed. And so besides leading by example, how do you encourage authenticity in other people on your team or other leaders? Janaye, perhaps.  

 

Janaye Ingram [00:42:07] I'll have I'm happy to jump in on this one. It's interesting. I started or I should say I graduated with a bachelor's in psychology from undergrad. And it wasn't until I became a people manager that I realized this was like the best decision of my life to study psychology because it comes in so handy. I think so much of of sort of addressing authenticity or any other sort of issue that comes up, I don't want to say issue, but any other topic that comes up when you're leading people really starts by understanding who the people are, right? Like people exist in the world. They don't just come to work and leave the home part of themselves at home. They bring their whole self to work and that whole self comes with a lot of extra baggage, things that happened in their childhood that shaped them, things that happened in their home life, things that happen, you know, in other relationships. And so for me, it really is about. In addition to leading by example, it's about understanding who that person is and what are the things that are preventing them from being authentic. When you're listening and you're listening to understand, not necessarily to respond and really tapping into who that person is. I think that you will find the things that are preventing them from being authentic, if that is something that that's an issue with them. And then you can, through other means, maybe not directly or maybe directly, try to address those issues to allow their authentic self to come to the forefront. But it really is about listening, understanding who the person is and really tapping into the aspects of them that really help them flower. Really help them develop and grow.  

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:43:54] That's right. It's about listening to learn from one another so that we can work better together and create spaces where everyone feels comfortable bringing their true self. There is tremendous power and potential in authentic connections. They create incredible outcomes that drive compassion, collaboration, community and change. There were many jewels of knowledge shared in this conversation. Here are a few insights that we can take away in building authentic connection as we close. Knowing who you are and then telling the world who you are is a first step. Understand that vulnerability is not weakness. It is power. Ask yourself and those around you. How are you melting with others? Are you creating spaces and proximity for others in your day to day work? Lastly, acknowledgment and recognition of disparities or inequities is not enough. Action is absolutely required, and that's a wrap for this episode. Many thanks to you for working with us. And until next time, keep it authentic. All day. Every day. Authentic 365 is brought to you by global communications firm Edelman.  

 

The Power of Gen-Z

What does it mean to be a Gen-Z professional? It's about bringing your authentic self to the table in new ways and unapologetically searching for transparency and truth. In this episode, four Gen-Z Edelman colleagues chat about how they show up as their authentic selves—at home, at work and when interacting with brands. 

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:01] It's who you are at work after hours and back at home exploring every layer, finding out what makes you uniquely you and letting that shine back out into the world. It's authentic 365, a podcast that takes a glimpse into how some of the most inspiring people among us express themselves and make magic happen. I'm your host, Dani Jackson Smith, VP at Edelman by day, community enthusiast and lover of the people Always Edelman released the power of Gen Z Trust and the Future Consumer Report. The data identifies Gen Z as the generation of sensibility, breaking through myths and assumptions that Gen Z is simply the influencer generation cancel generation or TikTok generation. On this episode of Authentic 365, our London co-host Jermaine Dallas will be leading a conversation on Gen Z and authenticity from time spent at home and work to interacting with brands and finding truth in a sea of opinions. You will hear personal stories direct from people that identify as Gen Z.

Jermaine Dallas [00:01:09] My full Gen-Z guests are from four different countries, and they have their own experiences to share with us. So first of all is Ali Al, ultimately who is an associate research analyst from Edelman's research DXI, Ali is based in our Chicago office. Next up is Asha Jani. Asha is an Account Executive from Edelman's Brand team in London. Then we have Kristen Bettencourt's, who is an account executive and influencer marketing based in Toronto. Finally, we have Sebastian Nicholas Schifrin, who is a senior account executive in the Paris brand team. So thanks everyone for joining us on the show today. What do you expect from brands--going to come to you first, Kristen, what you expect from brands and what will influence the purchase decisions that you make, how you sort of like an activist when it comes to choosing the brands that you buy from? Or are you more driven by price?

Kristen Bettencourt [00:02:10] Yeah, I think when brands create relatable content, I'm someone that's very into fashion and lifestyle content, and I make a lot of my influence based on like, let's say, I follow an influencer. I see something come up on my for you page that I really like, like, for example, like those in North Face jackets are really popular, really kind of all around the world and everyone's wearing them and you see everyone kind of build different outfits with them. So that's kind of what drives my purchase. And even though it is a little bit more pricey, but you can see it's very diverse and you can wear them with a lot of different outfits. So when I see brands create relatable content, I know that definitely drives it. I know when we work with influencers and we work with like a specific type of influencer for a campaign, and they're creating that content that really relates to their brand, for example, and are working with HP and we work with the tech influencer them just like really getting into detail and spitting the facts and reviewing all the details of the product. You can really see how engaged their audience is because they really want to see every detail and that you're hitting all the questions.

Jermaine Dallas [00:03:22] So I know you do work with influencers a lot anyway, Kristen. But do you think the influencers really do matter then when it comes to two Gen-Z and making the purchases they make?

Kristen Bettencourt [00:03:34] I definitely do think they have a big influence because I know it works on me. Sometimes I know sometimes I'll be very rash on my decisions, so I'll see something come up and I know it's going to maybe sell out right away because the specific influencer wore it. I know that and I'm not the only one in my friend group thought that happens. Do, and we do see a lot of ROI with our our brands and like them, getting really good engagement on their posts and their click through rates have been amazing. And so we've been seeing results and we've definitely been seeing positive feedback.

Jermaine Dallas [00:04:09] Ali, are you driven by influences?

Ali Almeflehi [00:04:15] I would have to say no. So I'm not particularly social media guy, right, like I don't spend so much time on social channels, but when I do, I'm looking for content that I particularly like like, you know, business content, entrepreneurship content, stuff like that. I will say just to kind of tackle, you know, how how to get to someone like me who is young but may not be necessarily on social all of the time. You know what you say on social media matters, and I'll give you an example. I love a brand who can crush communications with Gen Z, right? Like a brand who can show up authentically in, you know, these kind of social platforms or these little hubs and destroy communications. And I'll give you an example. I was recently I was recently in in Portugal. I just got back two days ago, right? And I went to I went to Spain for the weekend, kind of like in between. And I realized that I love Spanish, like I love Spanish. I need to finish learning Spanish. And the first brand that came to mind was Duolingo. And now we have a bunch of like Gen-Z people here, and they're shaking their heads because, you know, like, this is a brand that is absolutely destroying communications with Gen Z, and they're super authentic. You know, they're really, really funny. They're they kind of, you know, balance communicating with us in the way that we like. And so that influenced my kind of decision to use Duolingo to kind of learn vocabulary and stuff like that. So those are the things that drive my purchase decisions when I'm scrolling you and the little time that I use TikTok and I see a brand like, you know, in the comments being like, really funny or I see a brand, it's like, you know, helping someone, you know where there was a there was, you know, something was light was shedded on like a particular problem that young people, you know, brought to the surface and then a brand tackled that problem. I love that. I think that's amazing.

Ali Almeflehi [00:06:21] So I love the lingo as well. I just find that that a passive aggressive when you miss a couple. Oh, my goodness. Asha, what about you? Is the is the the brand communications important or is it all about the products themselves?

Asha Jani [00:06:37] I think for me, it's all about how a brand shows up consistent consistently across all aspects of life it touches, so not necessarily just what they're doing on social or what they do in their communications, but also, yeah, how that all marries up. So with this product, people through to what it's putting out on its platform is all about how that matter is open and is consistent with each other from one holistic brand point. And I think the big thing for me probably is is that people piece and the I think especially with, you know, such a pivotal and tumultuous time that we're living through at the moment with climate change and COVID 19. And, you know, like social justice, I think the key thing to remember is that Gen Z are watching what your how you're interacting with your people and that is influencing what we're going to buy from you now. And also what we're going to buy from you in 10 years time, in 15 years time. And I think for me in particular, with with influencers any just mentioned, I think that they'll probably impact me on sort of cheaper short term purchases, but for the long term, more expensive investments. I don't feel that they they influenced me on the day to day, which I think is interesting. So if I see an influencer, you know, pushing a piece of clothing, I might be more inclined to buy it. But in terms of more expensive purchases, like some some tech or even, you know, however many years time when I start to buy things for a house, for example, I'm not sure that influenced me that then it will be more about the brand as a whole. And yeah, I think that's where I stand on it.

Jermaine Dallas [00:08:24] So I'm hearing that the influences are important in certain situations. So all the stuff that the broader comes in, especially elements of purpose as well. Nicholas, what what influences you when you shop?

Sebastien-Nicolas Chiffrin [00:08:40] I think I'm going to have to thread it with Kelly on that on that one. I'm not sure that I I don't much get influenced by influencers to get a product. I don't think that I'm expecting brands to show up on certain things. I'm more expecting from myself to make sure that when I'm purchasing something that aligns with my beliefs and what I should wear, I should buy from. I mean, it's just that I'm not going to buy a product if I think that it does not fit with why I believe in the long term. But if I'm truly interesting in something like right now, I have a huge interest in my skin because of of the mask that we are wearing, and I'm seeing a lot of pimples going out and I'm like going crazy in the mirror every day and every night looking on a way to just remove them. So I started following a trend through and certain friends with skincare and beauty influencer just to have a better sense of What should I buy? And and it's not like influencer that I'm looking for, just like I'm searching for different sources and different people that like me, people that try the product. And that said, OK. And if I if I'm seeing like a lot of reviews that are that are saying that the product is the good one is a good one and you'll see the results that you're expecting, then definitely I will buy it. But it still has to fit with my beliefs. Like if if the brand are interested in diversity and inclusion, obviously that's going to be a huge part for me. And and and things like that. Yeah.

Jermaine Dallas [00:10:29] So I suppose it's not just about influences for influences sake, it's more sort of looking for people's expertize and people's experiences as opposed to just getting the celebrity to say, Buy this product, please. It's got to have that sort of level of authenticity. Which brings me to my next question. Actually, this is authentic three, six five, after all. So I want to move on to talk about what our lives are like at work. I say I feel like I'm a Gen-Z. I'm not. I wish I still am. But what about authenticity? What does authenticity mean for you, especially in the way that you show up at work? And I'll ask that to you. First, ask you.

Asha Jani [00:11:13] I think for me, it's incredibly important to bring my authentic self to work, and I think. Having only been in the workforce for the last two or three years, I'm still figuring out exactly what that means and and also having worked in two different companies. I think that means something different depending on the people that are around you. So my first company, I worked in an office that was, you know, 25 minutes from where I'd grown up my whole life. So I felt like all of the people around me or a lot of the people around me had similar experiences. The now working at Edelman, I've moved down to London and I do find that the people around me are probably less similar in terms of experiences and growing up than they were when I was when I was living at home. But I think in a way that means that I bring something very valuable in that I've had a different, you know, I've grown up in a different place and and in London as well, it being such a hub of, you know, multi culture, everybody and everyone brings something different. And that's something that I feel like it's really important to lean into, especially in the in the line of work that we do. And I think kind of from a Gen Z perspective, we are all really conscious and aware of the fact that we have a, you know, an important voice around the table at the moment and that people are really interested and invested in hearing exactly what we think. And so I think we just need to make sure that the authentic self that we're bringing to work, we're doing confidently and, you know, feeling empowered to share how we really think about something because that might have an impact on the work that we do and the ideas and creative concepts that are taken forward because our our our voice is important around the table at the moment. And I think it will be so painful. And so for me, it's it's important and it's important to do it confidently.

Jermaine Dallas [00:13:07] Yeah. And and I suppose I mean, you actually wrote both of and kindred spirits in that we both moved from towns up north in the north of the country. So you go to the bright lights of the city, but I suppose everyone has that sort of some sort of challenge or that balance to to hold when it comes to work. So I'll do you have a sort of a home persona and work persona, do you mix the two? How does that manifest in your life?

Ali Almeflehi [00:13:35] I try to show up the same like I my family knows me. Of course, they know more of me than, you know, I guess my coworkers do, but they kind of know me to be the same person, if that makes sense. And the reason that I try to do that is because I think it's I think it's too much work to not show up as yourself, right? Even if it's, you know, just kind of on the surface acting differently and not necessarily having conversations that you would have with people and interacting with people like you typically do. You feel it on the inside, right? Like you, you're it's it's somewhat conflicting, I think, to show up and not be yourself. And then the thing that I found is, you know, when you show up as who you are, particularly in your work place, it inspires people to be themselves in the workplace, right? And you know, I just I love my team. They know me. I'm like, I'm like a very I'm like a social butterfly, right? Like in the house and, you know, here at work and. Yeah, I think it just. It's just like it's just who we are like, it's easy, it's it's, I think, a little bit difficult sometimes for people to it to show up, to work as as themselves for fear of judgment. But what you find is when you actually show up to work authentically and you know, you get to inspire people to be themselves better work is done right. So it's it's a super cool thing.

Jermaine Dallas [00:15:03] What about you, Nicholas? Do you ever feel like you can't be yourself fully at work?

Sebastien-Nicolas Chiffrin [00:15:09] I yes. I mean, no, it's weird because, you know, in a way, I do think that I'm trying to be all of the time me. But sometimes that is a different version of myself when I'm at work because I can be a little bit crazy sometimes with my friends. So definitely I'm going to have to be a little bit more concrete when I when I'm at work. But what I loved in the Paris office is that it kind of is that tried to get people with personality. So it's not that much difficult for you to be yourself and within the office. Everyone is so much inspiring. And I mean, you can you can feel you can feel everyone's energy all of the time and the work and within the workplace, we have so much little time together, so it's not really difficult, even if you kind of have to be and a slight down version of yourself when you were with your clients. But when you when you wave your coworkers, it's it's easier because they tend to become your friends in a sense. So it's not that hard. But I do. From time to time, I change my personnel just to be to do to play the part. I think.

Sebastien-Nicolas Chiffrin [00:16:36] Kristen, is there a work, Kristen in her home, Kristen? How were the two different?

Kristen Bettencourt [00:16:40] Yeah, I definitely think I try to bring my most authentic self to the table, but I think especially on boarding virtually, I haven't been able to fully kind of show my full personality. I know, like you kind of have like 30 minute meetings or you have brand team meetings that are team wide, but I feel like I haven't been able to fully kind of give my full, authentic self. But while I have those little snippets, I try to be completely myself. And like Ali said, just honestly, you just you get more work done when you're yourself and and you just gets to communicate people the way you want to do it makes you want to show up to work when you're pretending to be someone that you're not it, it kind of makes you uncomfortable and it's just not comfortable. And yeah, I just think it's it's difficult online. So I kind of just try to make the best of it. And I hope that everyone thinks that I'm being my authentic self.

Jermaine Dallas [00:17:48] That's brilliant.

Ali Almeflehi [00:17:49] Just to add a point, Jermaine real quick. I wonder if, like I think the thing, I think work and life have been the waters have been kind of muddied a little bit, right. Like we sit in our homes, we open our computers and we're already at work, right? And so I wonder if because that's the case there is there's a bit of a push to be yourself a little bit more because you're already working from your own home, right? You're a little bit more comfortable than you would be, you know, walking into an office. Sometimes you I'll take meetings, I'll run downstairs, I'll be on my phone, I go grab a cup of coffee, talk to my mom, sometimes put myself on mute, right? And I wonder if that's that kind of thing is pushing people to be themselves a little bit more just out of, you know, like a place of comfort. The other thing is is it's it's kind of hard to be inauthentic now because everyone's watching, right? Like, everything is so open in this generation. I don't know if you saw the research, but like 70 percent fact check what you say and will unfollow you if you're being untruthful, right? Like this is a generation that like searches for transparency and truth and all of these different things. And so because that's the case, there's a little bit of social pressure to to be you or social pressure. And kind of we have like a social anxiety because people are watching if you're not being you right? And so I just wanted to add that I think it's it's cool and it's something that's a little bit different and definitely probably brought on by the pandemic or exacerbated by the pandemic.

Kristen Bettencourt [00:19:26] Can I just jump in there? Yeah, sure. I think it's funny that you kind of brought that up, too, because I do know a few influencers personally, just from friends and growing up. And I do know, like a lot of it's been kind of known lately that people are coming out that on the internet, like they're showing like their best versions of themselves. And obviously, you do have the influencers where they show you every detail, but they do say it's kind of hard to kind of disconnect from the two because you're showing your whole life on the internet. So sometimes it gets hard because you're constantly showing people like the positive sides, all your wins. Meanwhile, like behind the scenes, like, obviously you're human, you're going through normal things. So sometimes differentiating like you're obviously not going to put your failures all the time. Of course, there's like influencers like Remy Batali, but she kind of blew up on TikTok and she she's known for doing her plus size like outfit reviews, and she blew up just showing like her most authentic self, like even behind the scenes, like her struggles with mental health. So it was really cool seeing that. But for the majority, I know there's a lot of influencers that do struggle like behind the scenes, but on the surface level they look like amazing, like everyone thinks they have the best life. So it's kind of like a fine line. Like, obviously you're going to go fight like trusting what you see on the internet and you're going to see a lot of people posting the same things. But sometimes there's a fine line on the internet with like, who's really like showing you everything? And like, can you really trust that influencer and all of that as well? It's what I've noticed do, and even just working on the platform, sometimes I find when I'm constantly on Instagram and TikToks, I work heavily on it for being an influencer marketing. I need to disconnect after like, it's very, very hard. I find it it. It definitely affects my mental health more than you think sometimes. But just finding that disconnect is something that is very important.

Jermaine Dallas [00:21:22] Ali, you made an interesting point about it possibly being an area of comfort working from home that you have that sort of that connection that is the familiar with you. And which I think is interesting because one thing that I hear a lot, especially from Gen Z, is that sometimes it can be difficult to acclimatize to a new business when you are not based in the office. I'm going to come to you, Ashley, because I know you've joined Edelman at a time when you went straight away going into the office all the time. So what were the expectations for you going into the world of work and coming into Edelman, where you weren't able to be in the office straight away?

Asha Jani [00:22:02] Yeah, I think one of the main reasons that I joined Edelman was because I really craved the kind of collaboration, creativity, the teamwork and those sorts of, you know, real people, elements of the job where we were going to be working closely together. And yeah, I joined in in last March. So that was right at the height of lockdown in the UK, and I was probably working at home before I went into the office at all for four or five months. And you know, it's all a point, I think. Working from home and trying to get your personality across virtually is something that I found challenging. And again, I think it is that the balance of really wanting to make your mark on a team, but also sometimes challenging people or coming up with new and different ideas can can be slightly more daunting when you're virtual. And you know, you have to really kind of make an effort to cut through the noise rather than you saying across the office. And, you know, conversation just happens a little bit more naturally that, you know, you're not having to unmute yourself and try and jump in. But to me, I think I really came into my own at Edelman as soon as I saw going into the office. And that's something that I noticed was huge and something that I didn't really think about too much before I joined Edelman, and I didn't think that working from home, which would be an issue and it wasn't an issue, but I have just found that I enjoy it so much more when I'm in the office and were able to have those collaborative conversations and creative brainstorming and things a lot in person. It's just something that happened so much more naturally. But then equally, I wouldn't give up working from home completely. I think, you know, flexibility and the ability to choose when and where you work has this huge benefits, I think for me. And as a young person, I definitely crave that the social aspect of of the office. But I also appreciate the ability to be able to work from home. Make your working environment work for you.

Jermaine Dallas [00:24:17] Nicholas, what about you? How have you found working from home for so much of the early part of your career? When a lot of people would be wanting to be in the office as much as possible to learn things firsthand from people?

Sebastien-Nicolas Chiffrin [00:24:32] Well, to be honest, it was a really difficult experience because I was alone in my apartment in Paris, I mean, out there. So it was it came down a little bit hard on me. So I was really, I wouldn't say depressed, but not far from that because being away from my friends, my family for such a long time. And then I had the ability just to to move to the countryside with some friends. So we were like for a long time, seven of ourselves together in a place, enjoying ourselves for seven months and then go back to my place all alone so that that was like a really depressing moment for me. And I started meditating things to say, which does not sit well with my personality. I'm going to say that for sure that for the first time, for the first lockdown, I thought I tried meditating and I think I closed my high for 10 second and listening to to a YouTube video on how you should meditate. And I think about 10 seconds when I was, I said, OK, no, that's not for me. I'm going to stop. So I try sports. So I was like, I was doing a lot of sport in my apartment. Every at noon, every day. I had somewhat a coach that was helping me trying to get fit for the summer because I didn't know if I was going to be able to to get to the beach. So some of these guys do that at all and always

Jermaine Dallas [00:26:08] good to be prepared just in case,

Sebastien-Nicolas Chiffrin [00:26:11] just in case. And then I think I downloaded the application that Edelman provided for everyone and which has been of tremendous help. I'm going to say just that because it helped me started just to have a better sense of how you should take that in so that it's OK to feel depressed. But you can have you can exercise yourself in a way that you train your brain on to seeing the positive outlook on your life. Early morning and when you go to bed. So that was definitely of a huge help to go through that.

Ali Almeflehi [00:26:53] And then, Sebastian, if you don't mind me asking if you don't mind me asking, Did you work in the office prior to the pandemic? Where have you been at Edelman long enough to work in the office?

Sebastien-Nicolas Chiffrin [00:27:05] Yes, I mean, hours before so. So it was kind of hard for me just to. I was I was in the office for three years because before the pandemic, so and so I spend almost a lot of time getting to know all of my coworkers working on their accounts very closely on the same office, I mean, within the same offices. So yeah, that was that was the hardest part because I knew my coworkers and I knew how how fun it was to go to work.

Ali Almeflehi [00:27:34] And so now that you have experienced both? Which do you prefer? Because I think I think this is going to be this is so awesome to explore because many of us don't have a point of reference as to what work was like prior to the pandemic. Asha, myself, I don't know. The three of us here don't know what it was like to go in and work with your coworkers in person. But now that you've experienced both, what do you prefer and why? What are the what are the like? Just talk about that a little bit, if you don't mind.

Sebastien-Nicolas Chiffrin [00:28:05] I think I love a good balance of first. I'm not going to say why. I mean, yes, I do it. I'm going to say, I think that's a morning when I'm not just like heavy on going to work, you know, I mean, it's not that. It's just that sometimes when you just get out of bed, it feels like, OK, I'm going to take that call from from my, from my desk and from my. I mean, it's going to be just easier for me because in terms of the mental space that I'm in, I don't feel like going. I'm taking the train and seeing a lot of people, and I'd rather be just by myself. And sometimes when you were at your place, you can scream at your computer and no one will be mad at you. So it's also easier just to express yourself in some ways that you won't be able to when you were in the office, to be honest. And at the same time, I do love my coworkers, and I do enjoy the times that we get to spend together. I have also a lot of people that I have to train, some interns and such. So it's it's not easy just to share. Your knowledge and just to explain people things over the phone over and over and over things, even if it's a great platform just to that has been a tremendous help. But I think sometimes it's also viewed to be in the office just to connect with the people that you're working with.

Jermaine Dallas [00:29:34] Exactly. Yeah. Before we get out of here, I want to go onto and quickly talk about what is truth and how we define truth. So I'm Ali. You mentioned in the Gen-Z research that Edelman conducted that the majority of people think that 70 percent of Gen Z fact checked, fact check even, the information that they receive. So I'm going to start with you, Kristen. How do you define truth and whose opinions do you take on board?

Kristen Bettencourt [00:30:02] And yeah, I think it definitely comes, comes and goes. For me, I feel like I'm just really heavily the influencer because I'm always on social media. So that's where I fact-checked a lot of my things. I feel like I go straight to the comments and then I will see like hashtags and see if there's other reviews on it. I definitely want to. I do like my research. I do heavy on my research because I know that sometimes obviously there's situations where influencers were post something and they don't necessarily use that. There's always occasions where that comes up, but I go straight to the comments. I look at what people are giving feedback if they say, Oh yes, I've tried to do its work great on me, and then I look at the hashtags and see if other influencers have use it, or even just regular people that aren't influencers that are just posting about it, and they're just sharing their honest feedback and reviews. That's how I kind of base my feedback off of. And then obviously, I have my my girl group chats I like I'll. I'll kind of check in and we'll chat and see if anyone has tried it or they have any feedback, too. That's kind of where I check most of my stuff just because I'm just so heavy on social media, unfortunately. And that's how fortunately, but fortunately. But yeah, that's where I fact check a lot of my stuff

Jermaine Dallas [00:31:18] and I'm going to and finally ask you that same question, Asha. Where do you get your truth from?

Asha Jani [00:31:25] Yeah, I think what Kristen said, that was really, really interesting because from the Gen-Z research, I also thought it was really interesting that 84 to 88 percent of us find inspiration from our friends and family, and I think that truth is something that aligns with inspiration in that way because I think I totally agree that like both inspiration and truth, the first place that I would look to discuss that with is probably friends and family. And then like, those conversations in that discourse helps me inform where the next step might be. I go to get my truth and I think similarly to Kristen, I'm a huge researcher and I wasn't necessarily thinking of truth in terms of like influences and reviews and that sort of thing. But because you mentioned it, I'm a huge foodie and if I'm going to go on a holiday, for example, and I'm looking at places to eat or drink when I'm away, I will read realms and realms of reviews. Mm-Hmm. And I read the comments of Typekit in on Twitter. And I think that that's just about Gen Z, you know, rigorously fact checking and researching. I really I really do agree with that. I think it's almost second nature to us that if we see something on social media or in the press, that we will then type in on Google Typekit and on Twitter, ask our friends about it. Even if it doesn't feel like we're fact checking, we're probably doing it indirectly through having conversations with people every day. And then I guess, yeah, I think the truth also is just something that comes from in our line of work. I guess like reading around the topic and making sure that we are informed and we have those like differences of opinion. So that's something that I definitely do as well is that if I've read one opinion on something, I actually try and seek out the opposing opinion and then make my own call on where I sit within the spectrum. Mm hmm.

Ali Almeflehi [00:33:30] Yeah, I I I don't think it's a coincidence that we're all this way. Also, by the way. I don't think it's a coincidence. I think I think it's super cool that young people are finding their way to the truth. And the reason I don't think I don't know if any of you read the recent Edelman 20 22 Trust Barometer report, but misinformation and disinformation is at an all time high, right? It seems like in a world where truth is scarce, we're trying to search for the breadcrumbs and figure out our way to actually what is right, what is correct, what is. And I think it's super cool, but I don't think it's a coincidence.

Jermaine Dallas [00:34:09] Yeah. Well, I think that's all the time. We have to really appreciate your time. So, Kristen, Asher, Allie and Nicholas, thank you so much for joining us on authentic three six five. If you want to find out more about the Gen Z research, you can find all the information at Edelman.com

Dani Jackson Smith [00:34:28] And that's a wrap for this episode. Many thanks to you for walking with us. And until next time, keep it authentic all day, every day. Shout out to our team behind the scenes Faith McIver, Emma Marie MacAfee, Trisch Smith, Denise Busch, Sarah Neil, Pamela Blandon, Emma Dowling, Ryan VandenBosch. Authentic 365 is brought to you by global communications firm Edelman.

 

Ethnicity is Authenticity

It is the last day of Black History Month in America. Here at Edelman our theme has been Joy-full: Manifesting Wellness and Unity with programming that has prioritized self-care and community along with personal and financial health. As a bonus episode for this month, Dani Jackson-Smith talks with Dr. Jason Chambers author of Madison Avenue and the Color Line: African Americans in the Advertising Industry about the importance of understanding history. 

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:01] It's all you are at work after hours and back at home exploring every layer, finding out what makes you uniquely you and letting that shine back out into the world. It's authentic 365, a podcast that takes a glimpse into how some of the most inspiring people among us express themselves and make magic happen. I'm your host. Danny Jackson Smith, VP at Edelman by day, community enthusiast and lover of the people always. Its the last day of Black History Month in America, and here at Edelman, our theme has been Joy-full: Manifesting Wellness and Unity with programing that has prioritized self-care and community, along with personal and financial health. As a bonus episode for this month, I'll be talking with Dr. Jason Chambers, author of Madison Avenue and the Color Line African-Americans in the Advertising Industry and note, he is also my former professor at the University of Illinois. Dr. Chambers, let's start with this Where are you from?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:01:02] I am originally from Central Ohio, a small town named London, Ohio, which probably most people have never heard of. But it's about 20 minutes outside Columbus, so it's almost right smack dab in the center of the Great State of Ohio.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:01:14] When did you first start getting passionate about advertising?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:01:18] You know, I'm one of those weird people who always kind of paid attention to advertising. I can remember watching it, watching commercials on Saturday mornings in-between cartoons, back when kids still did such a thing. So I've always kind of had an interest in advertising. I've always been one who kind of paid attention to advertising. I always I grew up in the last heyday of the jingle, the advertising jingle. So I've always liked advertising in some form, some form or fashion, even from a very young age.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:01:48] OK, so at what point did you say or begin to shift this passion for advertising into really digging into the history of advertising?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:01:58] That was something for me that came in graduate school. I'd always had an interest in media. For example, I edited a Black newspaper, Black student newspaper when I was an undergraduate, so I was always going to go either. You know, I was always going to be in some way shape or form connected to media, whether it was going to be journalism, whether it was going to be advertising, whether it was going to be something in the realm of of production. So I'd always had an interest in media. But I went to when I went to graduate school to get an advanced degree, advanced degrees in history. It really was a set of classes that I took that studied consumers and studied the way that people had evolved as consumers. And I combine that with an interest, a growing interest then of studying the history and the story of African-American business enterprises, African-American as business owners and a variety of industries, or African-Americans, as high level employees, executives and a variety of industries, so that the various things media and advertising and business, those interests kind of all came together into a study of African-Americans' participation in the advertising industry. What we have been able to do as business owners, as high level employees, how we had or had not been able to matriculate in the advertising industry. Those are those things all came together at that point.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:03:18] And what really stood out for you in the research that was that you were beginning to do at the graduate level?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:03:26] I think the things that stood out for me, perhaps not so not so much in a good way, is the way that our story in advertising had really been obscured or ignored or overlooked. One of the things about history that you learn is that it's not that stories don't exist, it's that stories just haven't been told or stories just haven't been known. And so for much of advertising history, for much of advertising story was really a story of White men. We didn't even really, this is back in the 1990s, early 2000s, I got my Ph.D. in 2001, so I'm in graduate school in the 1990s. Back then, we didn't even really consider the story of women. It was still rare to consider the story of women White, Black or otherwise in advertising. So advertising was very much a story of what what had White men done in concert with other White men. So White men on the advertising agency side of things and White men on the client side of things, how the two of the two of those groups come together to form the relationship that we've come to know between advertising agencies and clients. So even in the landscape of women, we might have winch and one woman's name. If you'd studied advertising extent, the story of advertising extensively, maybe you heard the name of Helen Reese, or maybe you you'd heard the name of Mary Wells Lawrence. But other than that, you didn't get any story of the role of women in advertising that had been overlooked or not really told at that time. And certainly a company that would have been the story of African-Americans. And so based upon what I knew of African-American history, I can say with confidence that confidence that there is virtually no industry, none whatsoever. There is no industry in America that African-Americans have at least not tried to enter in some way, shape or form. You can't find one. Now, whether or not we were able to do so, whether or not we were able to be successful in doing so, that's a whole other question that's getting into the details. But in terms of whether or not we tried to be in advertising or whether or not we had tried to be in a particular industry, I knew that there had to be a story there and I wanted to find that out because even even if we were absent from the industry, let's just say the the stories of African-American absence and advertising were correct, then I felt that there had to be a story there as to why we had been absent. Why hadn't we've been able to operate in the area of advertising? Why had we perhaps chosen not to try to operate in the area of advertising? Because the the history of African-Americans in newspapers, the you know, that original form of print media, the stories of African-American newspapers go back as far as there's almost as far as there's been anything worthy of calling it the United States of America. So if we'd been in newspapers and it doesn't take a genius to see, you didn't have to be a genius publisher or editor to see the value of advertising dollars to your newspaper, then there had to be some. I knew there had to be have had to have been some effort for African-Americans to get into advertising. And I wanted to and I wanted to know what happened.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:06:31] I am over here smiling because I remember sitting in your advertising history class as well as your race and ethnicity class at the University of Illinois and just learning so much. What was the journey like starting those classes?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:06:47] The advertising history class had been there even before I had arrived. That had been something that had been in some way shape or form, part and parcel of the of the department. Even, you know, almost from the very beginning, when it was founded by Charles Standage, the race class was a little bit different because the race and ethnicity class. Even back then, you know, you're still having to assemble a lot of, you know, disparate materials because, you know, we didn't have really an extensive there's not really an extensive historiography or is not really an extensive area of academic study that that it tried to capture the story of race and ethnicity, its connection to advertising, the role of African-American consumers, the role of consumers of any race or ethnicity. So trying to capture that and encapsulated into a class it and make it make sense, it was challenging. It's gotten it's gotten subsequently easier over the years. But you know, our respect for the industry's respect for consumers of various races and ethnicities is something that has ebbed and flowed over the years and depending upon how it's either ebbing or flowing, dictates the level of resources. In some way, shape or form dictates the level of resources that are available to use for instruction in some ways.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:08:03] What year was it when you when you taught that class the first time?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:08:06] That would have probably been around 2006, 2007.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:08:09] When I think about that class, which I still have the course packet for and I use as a reference and a resource. I think about then the journey to you as an author and the publishing of your book Madison Avenue and the Color Line, which I believe was three years later in 2009. Is that correct? That's correct. I'm thinking about what you just shared, you know, the lack of resource and a lack of information there. And how did you see creating Madison Avenue and the color line filling that gap?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:08:43] That's an excellent way to put it Dani, because that's exactly how I saw it was filling that gap because of the resources that were available that that purported to tell the story of advertising, you know, the books like the mirror makers or Soap Sex and Cigarets or a variety of other titles. And there aren't that many, but even the ones that tried to purport to tell the story of advertising in the United States of America, we were at best the story of African-Americans was at best a few paragraphs or, if we were lucky, a few pages. And so I saw myself as filling that gap to provide the story of, you know, African-American participation, to go back to the nineteen teens and see those first efforts of African-Americans attempting to combine a respect for a respect and a respectful treatment of African-Americans as consumers, but also to combine those with business enterprises. Because after all, advertising is a business to make money. But going back to the nineteen teens for people like a gentleman out of actually out of Chicago, Claude Barnett, who who one of his first forays into business was to try to run an advertising agency such, you know, loosely defined. Not something that we perhaps recognized this as an agency today, but, you know, the creation of artwork, creation of copy and and the placement of same for various businesses. So, you know, looking at his letters and his efforts to interest businesses around the country in, you know, targeting African-Americans as consumers and then obviously utilizing his agency in his own kind of knowledge of media and its knowledge of advertising to be able to do so. And so there are there are many stories like that from that 19-teens period forward African-American striving to found agencies or African-American striving to use their own expertise or interests and being artists or writers to find a place for themselves, musicians as well. To find a place for themselves in advertising. And so you know that book covers, you know, those various stories and so people whose names had otherwise been kind of lost to history. Claude Barnett at Branford and David Sullivan and and many others to tell the story of what they had had, what they had to endure to try to get into advertising, to try to impact and change the advertising industry, to try to impact and change out treated or even perceived of African-American consumers to get rid of some of the derogatory and stereotypical negative imagery connecting the advertising industry, connecting the civil rights movement to the advertising industry and things of that nature. And so that book does kind of all of those things in ways that no other source had done to that time. And so I really did see it and do see it. Still, even you know where we at 13 years later, I still see it in that way because as a as a resource, it still functions in that way because many of those names still aren't, you know, still aren't as widely known as I would, as I would prefer.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:11:49] I think that's an amazing point because, you know, while we may know the Tom Burrell's or the Carol Williams, there's so much about our history, in particular our advertising history that many of us don't know because maybe we didn't have to take that class in school. Or, you know, it's not a priority on the journey, but it is really vital when we think about the work that we do moving forward. So before I go into talking about the work, let's take a pause to talk about authenticity, right? Because I think it's something really special about the connection between history, preserving history. And then, like you said, your your your passion that you've carried throughout to where you are today. And there is a through line there that I would like to explore around your passions and how that's carried through today. And maybe how that ladders up to maybe how you perceive or define authenticity for yourself.

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:12:49] I heard it as described as an African proverb. Perhaps others have heard it described differently than that's fine when it comes to these types of things. But it's the proverb of only when the Lions have historians will the hunters cease to be heroes. And for me, that is an absolute truism of advertising. Advertising is the story told according to the people who are in power at the time. The people who are who are in power because they have the money or they have the time, or they have the resources to tell a particular story. And when it came or interested, even in telling a particular story. And so when it comes to the story of advertising for far too long, it's been the story of essentially of the genius of White men. And that is a it's it's simply incorrect. It, as I said earlier, it overlooks the role of women. It overlooks the role of racial minorities that overlooks the role of people of different gender identities, of people, of people of different sexual orientations like much but like much of our history, and it is exactly that much of our stories in a variety of categories. It is exactly that. And so it is it is an inauthentic telling of what happened. Right? It's a telling of a particular point of view. Again, the genius of White men. But it's an incorrect point of view, and it's a it's a point of view that damages everybody else, but it also damages them because, you know, it essentially says it leads them to from our own present time in twenty twenty twenty two to look back and consider that there was a point in the world in which, well, White men were simply masters of the universe, and that time just needs to come again. No, you weren't. And you never have been. That's the story that you've told yourself, and that's the story that's been replicated. But it's been done so because it has allowed you to overlook all of the contributions of everybody else that you'd rather ignore right to to hail your own genius and to justify your own continued positions of power. So it's an it's an inauthentic representation of what happened, but it's one that far too many people still want to celebrate the facts of history, not the story of history, but the fact of history don't bear that out, but you nevertheless want to continue to celebrate this inauthentic ideal. Again, much to your own detriment, let alone the detriment of the rest of the country. And so my my own purpose and my own role in this, as I see it, is to bring that authenticity, to bring those facts to light. And then we could we can encounter the facts and we can discuss the facts later. But to encounter them rather than to ignore them, I believe, is my role and really my my greatest contribution.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:15:30] And how does that also play out? Let's say, like if you had to say, Hey, here's how I define authenticity. How would you define authenticity?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:15:39] I define authenticity as the truth, regardless of the consequences. The facts, regardless of the consequences. Telling the story of African-Americans in advertising, for example, doesn't mean that it's a story of un of unparalleled celebration. There's been fits, there's been starts, there's been successes, there's been failures. There's some places where things could have been done better, been done differently. But authenticity requires that. That truth telling it in it requires encountering both the the victories, as well as the failures of all of our various stories and looking at how they combine together into the tapestry that is, you know, that is America, that, you know, that is advertising in the United States of America. So I define authenticity as a way of centralizing truths. Right. And it's not individually defined

Dani Jackson Smith [00:16:32] in your journey to live authentically and put out authentic work. What type of challenges have you come across?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:16:40] I think the biggest challenge is disbelief, right? Disbelief that that there actually was a people don't often don't often think that things that they haven't heard of must be can't be true or to say it a little bit more elegantly. We normalize that which we've been taught and anything that stands outside of that, which we've been taught. We put a certain filter on or people have a tendency to put a certain filter on to say, Well, that can't be true, because if it was true, then that's what I would have been taught. Well, no, not necessarily. And because then we get into the politics of storytelling, we get into the politics of history because those things, you know, those things are there as well. You know, we we strive for objectivity, but there really is no such. There really is no such thing because there's a there's a subjectivity in the questions that you even ask. There's a there's a subjectivity in the the resources that you choose to highlight, even as even as a writer. And so I think the, you know, one of those biggest things is has been again, that area of disbelief that that the African-American contribution could have been that great because people will say, Well, if it had been that great, then why haven't we talked about it more than White? Why haven't African-Americans be, you know, created greater and larger agencies? And why have there only been so few African-American CEOs of major agencies? Well, then we can get into. Well, I'm glad you asked. Now let's talk about racism and racist policies. And that's where that's where people hold their hand up and says, say, well, well, well, hold on a second. That's that's where I that's where I get off. And and my response has been, if you want to encounter the truth of the advertising industry, then you have to encounter the central truth that it is an industry that was founded and exclusion. It is an industry that was founded on keeping people out. Right. That's what Dr. Kennedy means when he talks about the idea of a person can be doesn't have to be racist to practice the practice and support racist policies. And as an industry, advertising has long been filled with racist policies that have been replicated without for a long time, without much question.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:18:58] Now when we talk about, you know, responsibility who is responsible for ensuring that history is told correctly,

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:19:09] Ultimately, I think it's I think it's all of us. But I have also been one who has said that as an African-American, as an African-American storyteller, if, if, if I want our stories out there, then I have to participate in their telling. Does that mean it can be only African-Americans who tell African-American stories or women who tell women's stories? Men who tell men's stories would have, you know, absolutely not. But I always felt a special responsibility to do so because I knew about so many of the distortions of history that were connected to African-Americans. You know, I'll give you a big one. You know the story of the happy slave ride that the happy slave, if you if you think about that, the happy and the the singing, the happy singing Darcie that was often used also Houston and for a long time in the advertising industry. But that myth of the Old South. It's such a...I'll refrain from blue language. It's such a lie, right? It is absolutely positively, unquestionably such a lie. But people still use it today. Right, the south, this in the south that it was better. This and it was better that. No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't. Factually, I can demonstrate it factually. No, it wasn't. It might have been better for a few, but I knew that and I know that. But if you're going to get around that and you're going to change that narrative, then you have to have people who are willing to push back against that type of narrative. And I always I always wanted to be one of those historians who pushed back. One of the scholars who pushed back, really.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:20:47] I was reading the article that you were in in the Guardian and you say ethnicity is authenticity. Can you explain that?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:20:58] Well, what I meant by that, by that was in that piece, we were talking about the use of stereotypes. We're talking about the use of stereotypes like Aunt Jemima, the the expert Black cook, the happy, whether she was a happy slave or a happy former slave. She was so happy with her, even with her old slave holding family that even after freedom decided to stick around on Masta's Old Plantation and cook breakfast for Masta and his family. And so I said that that image was utilized in things like, you know, Aunt Jemima products or the smiling servants of Uncle Ben's or the smiling servants of Cream of Wheat, among many others. A number of others that were there are no longer sold or have been lost to history for a variety of reasons. But what I was saying in that phrase of ethnicity is authenticity is that stereotypes were used to provide a vision of authenticity of the product. And so if such an expert Black cook as Aunt Jemima offered her recipe of pancake, a pancake making to the, you know, to the Quaker company, for them, for the making of their Aunt Jemima pancake mix, then that image of this ethnic person, this Black woman was used to convey a sense of the authenticity of the product. Right. So the ethnicity itself becomes a marker of authenticity. So it becomes a marker of the truth or the value of the product in question.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:22:27] From a historical standpoint, as we know, history repeats itself in certain points. Maybe what you you would see moving forward?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:22:36] I think the way that I would answer that, Dani, is that, you know, time is linear, but people are not right. People have a tendency to ebb and flow, will take two steps forward as we take one step back or two steps, two steps forward and then take three steps back. It's, you know, you liken it to somebody who's who's trying to get in shape, right? You know, we just came out of a few weeks past the new year now and, you know, past the point of, you know, New Year's resolutions, right? When people resolve that, this is going to be the year that they get in shape and they're all in on it for days and maybe weeks. But now as we enter February and you know, we just got 12 inches of snow here in Champaign a couple of days ago. Now we enter the time where it gets really hard. It's not as easy to get to the gym or it's not as easy to keep working out, or it's not as easy to to keep eating right. And so, you know, we maybe have the tendency to slide back into the comfortable. Well, that's what I mean. You know, the calendar has moved linear linearly. We've gone from January to February and life. But as people, we took a few steps in my my example here. We took a few steps forward. We took us a few steps towards getting in shape, but then we took a maybe a step back towards kind of backsliding into my prior behavior of bad eating or or, you know, sleeping in rather than getting up to work out. Well, I think I think the same thing, you know, with advertising, I think people can be and have been people can be earnest in wanting to do different or wanting to see change or wanting to see different voices and and faces and locus of power in front of and behind the camera. But my question is what? What happens when it gets hard? What happens when we're, you know, we're past the energy. And so I think that, you know, those of us who are interested in seeing continue change in this industry, we have to recognize that that there will inevitably be a feeling of, you know, well, we've done enough or we've we've we've tried long enough or we've we've invested enough. And when you know, when that happens, just like the person has to push through, you know, getting up to keep going to the gym, you know, we have to continue to push through and say, No, we haven't done enough. No, a few dollars here or a few months of attention doesn't outweigh, you know, a hundred plus years of racist policies in this industry. You know, something like the advertising industry that you know, the advertising industry. If I can speak about it historically for a moment. You know, we consider the advertising industry to have been born somewhere in the 1880s 1890s, and by that I don't mean that nothing like advertising had been around before. I'm talking about the foundation of agencies, agencies that have roles and offices and things that we might recognize today are copy media placement, what have you. That's a very much an 1880s 1890s kind of phenomenon when we first start to see that. And so as an industry, then we've been around for hundred and forty years. Right? So for the one hundred and forty years, the overwhelming majority of it has been spent with racist policies in place. The overwhelming majority of it has been spent striving to exclude anyone but White men and for a long time for much of that history. I'm talking, we're talking primarily Christian White men. We're the only ones who are welcome to enter. White men who came from exclusive institutions were the only ones that were welcome to do, couldn't be Italian or Jewish or or Greek and get a job, you know, and many agencies until the 1960s, even if you were a White man. So it's been an industry of exclusion for most of its history. That's what it is at its foundation. And so a few months or, you know, a few years can't change that or even a few investments can't change that. Not not overnight, because in historical terms, what we've experienced in the last two years has actually has been overnight. And if we allow ourselves to, you know, take our eye off off of the, you know, the various goals that we have, then I think that we will see a backsliding into traditional actions or to traditional behavior because that's what that's what it's been for most of its history.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:26:42] What advice do you give for people to remain authentic, to keep pushing and not be on the sidelines? You know, I'm sure, as you say, like we take one step forward, two steps back. There's this ebb and flow of, you know, maybe people get a little worn out of of staying in the fight or staying at the at the head of keeping things moving forward. So what advice do you give?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:27:06] One of the biggest and best pieces of advice I ever got was to find you, find yourself a support group, find people and they can be in the industry or without. But you find yourself a network or a group of people of people or persons to whom you can vent. A network or a group of persons to whom and with whom you can yourself be. You can be authentic because there is a there is a relief in that right. It's like, Dr. Dubois said, all those many years ago, especially about being African-American and, you know, working in the in the broader White controlled world, which is that one ever feels is Tunis. When you're trying to push back or you're trying to push through policies that have been in place long before you, and many of which, even if they only exist as norms will be and perhaps will be in place after you that will wear you out and you will get the desire to retreat from the fight. Right. And I just I just want to go to work and be OK. I get that. That happens. So, you know, you take your strategic breaks and then, man, you got to get you got to get back in the ring, so to speak, because somebody somebody got in the ring for all of us, somebody got in the ring for me to and stayed in the ring for me to be able to operate in the way that I do in the academy to have a place it somewhere like the University of Illinois. There had been of time, which I wouldn't have been welcome here. There would've been a time which you wouldn't have been welcomed here unless unless we were sweeping and maybe not even then. So, you know, that's what we have to do until there is a time which we have to do it no more. Hmm.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:28:42] Yeah. And I'm not good at sweeping, I'm so bad at it, so I think that's just a really good point. You know, in terms of someone opened the door for us, you know, our made the way so that we can be present and staying encouraged, leaning on each other to support each other and keeping the door open and making it, you know, nonexistent for the next group of people that come through. Why do you think learning about the history of advertising specifically around race and ethnicity at the college level before you get into the workplace is important?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:29:20] Oh, that's an excellent question, because I think if if we can establish that such a thing happened then or a variety of things happen, whether it's connected to race or ethnicity, racism, what have you, then when you get out there and you get told these things and when you're in your workaday world just trying to get the job done, I need to get I need to get home myself. Type of environment, then it's not such a surprise. It's not such an uphill struggle for a person to come to understand the impact of racism or a person to understand the value of African-American media, or a person to understand the importance of multiple representations, the importance of people, the importance to people to see themselves respectfully represented. It's it's not. It's not such a heavy weight to try to grapple with because instead of being new to you, it ticks something in your mind that you're like, Wait a minute, I have heard that before and that that that does make sense. It resonates with you in a in a in a way that something that's absolutely new and is asking you to change the way that you're actually doing business. It resonates with you in a different way and allows, I think, people to make change or to at least to accept change or not stand in the way of change, to accept it and in a much more nimble fashion versus something that you've heard for the first time or something that's completely new to you or some group that you'd never been told and you needed to account for or even considered before in a particular product category category, you're being told no, that's that's actually not the case. And so setting that intellectual foundation for people when they don't have necessarily money or time on the line, right, the money up their, you know, their job on the line or the time of doing something extra or doing something new. That, I think is is the value of providing that the people when they have when they're in that point, they're at that point in their life, when hopefully they're, you know, they have the opportunity to, you know, really intellectually grapple with new ideas that college is at least supposed to be for in part.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:31:24] What have you seen from incoming students that feels new or feels inspiring or helps you to understand, like, Hey, the industry is changing.

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:31:39] I think the biggest thing, Dani, is, you know, if I had to point to a single thing, it would be their acceptance of diversity has changed in the 20 years that I've been here. I started in Illinois in 2001 and the sense of diversity or cross fertilization of ideals that is really broken down is not to say that people don't still group themselves based upon race and based upon ethnicity and other factors, gender identity and the like. It's not to say that that isn't there, but the acceptance of Hey, people want to see representation. It's important to show people of different groups. It's important to show people of different faiths and ethnicities and sexual orientations. The the questioning of that has decreased significantly in the 20 years that I've been here. You know, in a classroom, it doesn't feel like such an it's it's not even doesn't feel it's not such an uphill struggle as it once was to convince people that, hey, there is a value in diversity. It's becoming and it has become more of an accepted part of it and an ideal. So if you if you'll allow kind of an example instead of maybe 15 years ago, a student coming in and I'm trying to talk to them about diversity and diverse representation in media and advertising, and then perhaps having an intellectual attitude of, well, you have to convince me of that now. It's more of a. Well, of course there is. Mm-Hmm. You know, of course, there's a value of courses and importance of representation because, you know, they're they've at least seen more of it. Right. So they don't, you know, they don't look at their, you know, televisions or video screens anymore and only expect to see White people. Right. But it's important for them to understand to me how we got there and what what is preceded where we are. Because without that, there's always the potential for backsliding. Right. So it's important for me to talk to them about the time you know that I was laying. I was laying on my couch, just watching TV on an afternoon in an afternoon and a Lexus commercial came on a commercial for Lexus cars and the couple driving the car was it was a Black man and a Black woman, and I fell off my couch because up to that point and this is only, you know, 20, 25 years ago, up to that point, we had never seen it. You know, they didn't. They didn't use Black people to advertise luxury automobiles. Right? And so then we then we can get into the why and we can and can get into the how we got there and we can get into why that was such an astounding moment just for a person, you know, not even really that much of a scholar at that time. Or at least I wasn't watching TV with scholarly intent, but it was so surprising to me. So what if we can talk about those things and they can understand the moments that preceded the ones that in which we currently exist. Then it's also important for them to see and understand that, hey, you know, again, time is linear, but people aren't. So there's always the potential for us to backslide into prior things that were easy, more comfortable. Maybe we feel make more money, whatever the case may be.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:34:50] I love it. I love it. Yeah, I am. As you can say, I'm a I'm a fan. I'm a fan of knowing where you come from so that you can know where you're going, and also just so that you can see different perspectives. And I love that you shared that shift. Right. It seems like, hey, the work isn't as hard to convince people of the need of diversity right now or the value within a classroom.

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:35:19] Yeah. And so I think that's well said. And the thing is, if I can give if we can talk about it and encounter it in the classroom, then when you're out there as a decision maker, when you're out there as a person who has power, when you're out there, even as a junior account representative or whatever, a junior client representative and you have to choose an agency or recommend one or, you know, you're in a hiring capacity, you know, then ideally you carry that, you know, that you carry that with you when you do have some measure of power, influence, control, what have you. That you, you know, you can make your make, you know, help help to foster change in your own, you know, your own corner of the universe, if you will.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:35:56] How do you balance the workload as a professor? The dedication to, you know, being present and publishing articles, things like that and family life and things of that nature like how do you, you know, round it all out?

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:36:14] I think the thing for me over the years, I have learned to compartmentalize and pick a time to turn things off, right? You know, to turn things mentally off, you know, pick pick things that allow me just to, you know, separate out the, you know, the scholarship part or the, you know, the work in the intentional, the story, the storytelling, your fact finding part of me, you know, to just separate that out and not to do it all the time that at some point and in some places, you know, you can't stay immersed in it all the time, you know, or or it will eat you up. Right? It really it really will. And again, to, you know, to find the area where I think my skills are most optimally used and to operate in that area to try to foster and drive change rather than try to operate in every single possible area of the universe. Right. Well, I've got I've got to try to change this and I've got to try to change that and that and that that'll wear you out. And so you can't do all things, you know, all things equally well. And so, you know, I've chosen to, you know, figure out the things that are most important to me, family first and then do those things, you know, the both the the majority of energy to those things and then, you know, divided accordingly, you know, to the other things that are that are important to me as well. Right. But you know, when you when you're younger, you think I have to try to be involved in every potential issue and you just you just can't do that, but you can, but you'll just wear yourself out and find yourself in hospital.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:37:46] I think that's very well said because the amount of issues and the complexity of just managing an issue. Can take so much out of you as a person, right? So sometimes you feel like all right. And I definitely agree it is a is the graduating I mean, I'm late 30s now. I'm thirty eight. I just turned 38. So the me 38 versus the me at 21. Trying to understand like, how do you impact the world? How do you create change? How do you stand up for your community and maybe thinking like, OK, I can do it all. I can do, I can be on the front lines and I can tackle, you know, education and oh my goodness, we need to do something about real estate. And we, you know, there are a lot there are a lot of issues here. And I think when we think about systemic racism and the impact of systemic racism, we have to, you know, again, go back to the importance of community. And that's why we tap each other so well. You know, one person may be leading the charge from a real estate equity standpoint. You know, we can stand in this lane and lead the charge in diversity, equity, inclusion from education through time in the workplace, on the advertising side of things. And hopefully, we're in working together. We create a better society, you know, because you can't do it all by yourself.

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:39:20] Yeah. No, no, no, absolutely. I think that's very well said. And it's like, OK, some, some sometimes it becomes, you know, how how can I combine an area that I'm, you know, maybe there's a way to combine an area that I'm interested in, you know, with, you know, with my own work. You know, you mentioned real estate a moment ago and I was reading the couple, you know the story and there's been more than one. So you know, the story of the Black couple who had White friends show their house and purport to be owners of their house and the, you know, the valuation of increased by a half million dollars? Right? And so it's it's it becomes, you know, you you want to tackle the financial inequities of things, right? You want it. You want to tackle the, you know, the role of home home ownership and fostering wealth in fostering the ability to build wealth. What have you and stuff like? You know, I as as a historian, you know, well, I want I want to dig into that. I went to that story, to be honest. It's not anything. It's like, Well, that's not really where where I'm at. And so, you know, are there ways to combine that interest with, you know, with advertising and with the way that we show home- with even the depiction that even the depiction of home owners? Right. So, you know, you look for ways to try to tie your interests together, your passions together, I think with your work has been one of the things that I've striven to do. But then at the same time, also find ways in places where it's like, You know what? I'm I'm turning it off, right? And I'm just going to I'm just going to vegge out. And sometimes I just I just think about, you know, a picture that that I keep of Dr. King. And he was shooting pool. And it's like, you know what, even there was even points where Dr. King turned it off and said, Nope, nope. Or at least for these 60 Minutes or whatever. I'm just I'm just thinking about pool.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:41:10] I love it, I think that's a perfect way to end, you know, revolutionary civil rights activists or not. Sometimes you have to turn it off and just shoot pool. Yeah, that's it. These are the type of conversations, just real, authentic conversations that help us learn together and grow together. So thank you for sharing.

Dr. Jason Chambers [00:41:30] You are quite welcome. I enjoyed the conversation as well.

Dani Jackson Smith [00:41:34] And that's a wrap for this episode. Many thanks to you for watching with us. And until next time, keep it authentic all day. Every day. Shout out to our team behind the scenes Faith McIver, Emma Marie MacAfee, Trisch Smith, Denise Busch, Sarah Neil, Pamela Blandon, Emma Dowling, Ryan VandenBosch. Authentic 365 is brought to you by global communications firm Edelman.

 

Professional Troublemaker Luvvie Ajayi Jones

EPISODE 2 – PROFESSIONAL TROUBLEMAKER  

Fear—how do you overcome it, embrace it and turn it into action for change? To discuss this, Edelman's Dani Jackson interviews two-time New York Times best-selling author, Luvvie Ajayi Jones, on her latest book—"Professional Troublemaker"—and how she uses fear as a driver to do more.  

 

PROFESSIONAL TROUBLEMAKER TRANSCRIPT

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:01] It's who you are at work after hours and back at home exploring every layer, finding out what makes you uniquely you and letting that shine back out into the world. It's authentic 365, a podcast that takes a glimpse into how some of the most inspiring people among us express themselves and make magic happen. I'm your host, Danny Jackson Smith, VP at Edelman by day, community enthusiast and lover of the people, always. At the top of this year's select offices across our U.S. network read Professional Troublemaker: The Firefighter Manual, a tremendously successful book from the now two time New York Times bestselling author Luvvie Ajayi Jones. This episode features our conversation with the Luvvie about the book, and later in the podcast, our employee network groups Gwen and Griot shared their commitment about also being professional troublemakers. So Luvvie, 17 year blogging professional New York Times bestselling author for I'm Judging You the Do Better Manual, multiple podcasts. What inspired you to write Professional Troublemaker: The Firefighter Manual at this time?

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:01:12] Yes, I wanted to write this book right now because I feel like the subject of fear is urgent. It feels urgent. Because we are at a time, I mean, when I pitched this book, I didn't know you're going to end up in a global pandemic. But for me, I understand that my career is where it is and what it is today because of the moments that I have dared to do something that felt too big. Something that felt scary, you know, and I think about my TEDTalk being one of those things. I, I have a TEDTalk that not has five million views, and I almost didn't do it. I said no to a twice. I turned it down twice because I was afraid of not being ready to take that stage. I was afraid that I wasn't. I wasn't at the place where I wouldn't bomb or that, you know, I wasn't. I didn't have time to prepare because Ted does not play about their speakers. You know, Ted official make speakers, get coaches. You have to wonder script through the ringer and I turned it down. This is 2017 and the third time they came around about the same event. I was about to turn it down when my friend Eunique Jones Gibson and I called her and I was like, Listen, it's kind of crazy because it's three weeks before Ted and they want me to come and speak. And I was like, everybody else has had a coach, everybody else has had their talks figured out for months and here I am, about to come in three weeks to go. Eunique told me, Everybody ain't you. So I want you to get off my phone and go write this talk and kill it. And what Eunique did in that moment which you loaned me courage I didn't have for myself and I got on that stage and I killed it. And ever since the talk came out over three years ago, I've gotten thousands of messages from people all over the world telling me what their talk did for them. You know what impact that it had, and it had me thinking, like, how often? Do we say no to yes opportunities that could transform our lives, how often do we let fear stop us from doing what we're supposed to do? And I realized that in the moments when I have not let fear stop me, when I've been like, I know, I'm afraid, I know this is big. I know this might feel scary. And I choose to move forward any way, I win. So when it was time to determine what I am writing, what I was writing about, I felt convicted to write it about fear and. I really wanted to use that as a gateway, because in this world, for us to do better, which is what I asked for us to do for book one, we're going to have to do a lot of scary things. And what does that look like? It looks like we're going to be making trouble. We're going to have to be professional troublemakers. And that's actually how I introduce my TEDTalk because to make trouble in this world, it's to disrupt for the greater good. It is to continuously do the things that are scary because you want to hope that you are making some type of positive change, whether at work or at home or just with your friends. And that's why I wrote this book because I feel like. We need to use fear as a driver. We're not weak because we are afraid. We got to actually commit to the fact that to be fearless is just that you're not going to do less because of fear. So, you know, me being the professional troublemaker, I was like, This is the book that I want to write, because it's the book that I need. This is a book that I want to read in the moments when I get another option, another opportunity to do something like a TED talk or something that feels really big. I want this book to be like somebody else's permission to do that scary thing and be audacious no matter what margins that you live in. And it was really important that that I wrote this book because as a black woman who has a lot of reasons to cower in this world, a lot of reasons to, you know, not honor myself, a lot of reasons to fail because the world is rooting for me to fail. I wanted to write this book because I wanted people to see my audacity and hopefully unloading them courage that my friend did for me. So I want people to be loaned courage with my book.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:05:17] 100 percent, this book does that, and I've already started loan in my book out to friends and family. Now tell me, how were you influenced by John Lewis, who we know as Freedom Rider, civil rights activist, U.S. representative that encourages us all to make good trouble?

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:05:34] I quote the late, great John Lewis because he talked about us making necessary good trouble, and it's really good for us to use that as perspective. Because when people see like, Oh my god, profession troublemaker, that sounds bad. I'm like, No, that's not a bad thing. The people who make the good trouble in the world are the people who are sitting in the meetings and challenging the idea. That's not great. You know, they're the people who are sitting at the dinner table when the uncle makes an inappropriate joke and say, Eh, that's not cool. Professional troublemakers are the ones who are making sure they're elevating the rooms that they're in. And what John Lewis was asking us to do was to make trouble in our lives in the world. For the greater good like trouble looks like what he did on that bridge, right? But trouble also looks like having a hard conversation with a friend that you know is necessary. Trouble looks like challenging a coworker, thoughtfully challenging them. And I think for us, we shouldn't silence troublemakers. We shouldn't run away from making trouble. We should actually run towards it and realize that it is necessary. We have to make trouble for the world that we want to see. So let's let's normalize troublemaking.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:06:45] Hmm. Stay in good trouble. I am so on your page. So what do you say to those that want to be professional troublemakers but are thinking, I'm no Luvvie, I'm no John Lewis.

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:06:56] One, acknowledge the fact that we are afraid day to day small things, big things, right? So a lot of times people are not feeling like they are strong because they're feeling afraid. And I'm like, No, no, we're always going to have something. Life is going to throw something at us, and I want us to not turn our fears into these big dragons. You know these we will be afraid of asking for a raise because we're like, What if they say no? What if they say no? Did you die? You know? And I think about the fact that sometimes the thing that we're afraid of, it gets created into this big monster that takes up a whole room. And all we got to do is slay the dragon because we created the dragon. And what that looks like day to day is you thinking, you know, if I speak up in a meeting, Oh my God is going to write me up and am I going to get fired? You know, if you are working at a company that will fire you for challenge for thoughtfully challenging a coworker, that's not the company for you. But most companies do not fire you for it, right? And there might be different microaggressions that are attached to it. But I often think about how we will opt out of the best case scenario for because of the fear of whatever that worst case scenario is. We will act out of doing what is our obligation, our job, because we're afraid of that mosque that we've built up in our heads, we're afraid of getting fired. And I'm always like, You know what? Quantify your decisions. Put it on paper, what is the worst case scenario if you do get fired somehow because you spoke up in the meeting? Well, do you not have a savings account? And I'm talking to people who are privileged. You know, when I when I say that we should be troublemaking, we should be disrupting rooms. I'm talking to those of us who can especially afford to. We're not in acute danger of losing our homes, our livelihoods. And so when we build up these fears and we're like, Oh, well, if I get fired, what if you get fired? Do you become, do you lose your home, you become homeless? Do you lose everything you've ever worked for? Can you get another job? Is this the only job is the only company? And we're constantly acting out of that best case scenario because of all these fears and all the things that we tie to the actions we do. And I'm like. Covid should have given us more perspective, and I hope it does. In that that's what fears for, you know, keeping us from physical danger. Fear is what keeps us from putting our hands in fire. But the same thing that keeps us from putting our hands on fire is the same thing that's telling us not to speak truth when we are obligated, when there's nobody else in the room to do it but us, you know? It's the same thing that's keeping us from using our power and our access and our privilege. Because we don't want to lose those things, but I'm just like all those things are infinite. And as we are the privileged ones, we are the ones that are on Zoom, which already makes us privilege, we're the ones who are like, yeah, like I have a savings account that can last at least four months. We are the ones that should be putting ourselves on the line, not the person who's living paycheck to paycheck. Not a single mother who is like, I'm only making minimum wage and I do need this job. I don't want her to make trouble. I want her to survive. But we are beyond survival. We are thriving. And that thriving looks like now, OK, now that we have made ours, we've gotten comfortable. We have gotten the homes. We have paid our rent now, mortgages. We're not in constant acute danger, so our power needs to be used for other people. This trouble that we're going to make is not just for us, it's for those who are not in the room, the times they were speaking up. We're speaking up for the people who are not at the table. We're literally sitting at the table and we're still being quiet because we're expecting somebody else to do this thing. And I'm like, I don't know who you waiting for because who else but you know, you're literally at the table. It's you. You're supposed to speak up, not the person who not there or you're waiting for your coworker to say so you can be like, Hey, I agree. We always waiting for people, and I think we need to start waiting for that permission.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:10:52] That is tremendous because you will wait and wait and wait and waste away in your waiting. I've heard Seth Godin describe what you just described as the lizard brain, right? That thing that gets you stuck and in that fight or flight fearful mind state. How much has being from Nigeria shaped the way you approach this book?

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:11:12] I mean, my Nigerian-ness informs everything that I do, including my writing in my voice. But at the core of this book is my very Nigerian grandmother, like she was an elder stateswoman, and she is in the tradition of black grandmas everywhere that we all know. You know, she didn't take anything. To, she didn't allow people to tell her she didn't belong. My grandmother took up space without apology. She was fierce. She was kind. You know how like, they will lambaste you one moment, then be asking you if you want to eat the next. That was her all day, and everybody was her daughter and her granddaughter to where people actually didn't really know who was her actual real blood family. Because at the heart everybody was family and the way she allowed herself to be celebrated, the way she was unshakable. She had this energy of grounding that made you feel like everything was going to be OK. She didn't question herself. In any big way. And I watched that and I didn't realize that it was given me permission to be there. I didn't realize that I was learning from her. What it was like to kind of go through life and then get to a point where you realized that all along you've been good enough, and I'm just wondering what happens if we have that type of idea, but ourselves before we turned 65. What if we had that energy before we had grandkids that unfuck-with-able energy before we have gray hair? Some of us have gray hair and authorities shut out to me. But you know, at the core of this book, I put her in it because just the audacity that older black women carry that they don't get to have until they are older. I'm like, Why are we got to wait that long? You know what? How will our lives be different if we kind of moved with that fearlessness? And it's not even the idea that they weren't afraid of anything is that they always move forward regardless. Is that like the fear didn't make them do less? My grandmother was definitely that. So having her woven through the book was important because I wanted people to learn from her story and hopefully be affirmed by her story. Again, the world gives us many reasons to not celebrate ourselves, to cower. And she did not. She refused to buy her head. You know, she walked in every room, what she owned it and she found no stranger, nobody was a stranger to her because that woman could talk to a rock. Will ride in a taxi by the end of the taxi, shoot. She has asked this man who his family is, how is his kids, what their names? And almost nothing like  making a friend everywhere. There are no strangers. If I rode with her in a taxi, we weren't paying for that taxi because by the end of the day, the people are like, No, no, no, you guys go ahead. I'm sorry, what magic you do, but it just because she was just so she fit anywhere she was and she let herself be there and she didn't apologize for herself.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:14:18] Let's take a short break from the interview to talk Nigerian culture, specifically Yoruba culture and the purpose of an oriki, which Luvvie calls a standing ovation for your spirit. It is a word that combines two words to mean praising your head and or mind. Here is my oriki, Dani of House Jackson and Smith first of her name. Reflection of the Universe Lover of the people. Champion of community. Curator of connections. Dragon slaying culture queen. Can't stop. Won't stop creator. Generational wealth builder, and chi-town's finest. Now let's hear a few other orikis.

 

Anica Malabanan [00:14:54] Anica Shalamar of House Malabanan in first of her name. Warrior of healing justice. Seeker of Truth. Challenger of oppressive systems. Filipina fierceness and lover of cheese.

 

Chelsea Horn [00:15:11] Chelsea Reni of House Horn. First of her name. Wizard of words. Curator of quality time. Eater of all things spicy. Explorer of beach destinations. Master of Meaningful Conversation. Philosopher of pop culture. Scholar of spelling. And Queen of the Horn household.

 

Orlanthia Phillips [00:15:30] Orlanthia House of Landi and Phillips, first of her name. Fire Tongue, daughter of the most high god gourmet chef of sustenance for the body and resolve. Encourager of many maker of excellent wardrobe and wisdom, kindness and love.

 

Tiffany Hammond [00:15:47] Tiffany Carroll of House Hammond, Advocate of all. Breaker of Bullshit. Connector of community. Connoisseur of wine. Publicist of positivity.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:15:57] As we get back into the interview, think about your oriki. Think about that standing ovation for your spirit that you may need when you're not feeling confident. Luvvie, let's talk about imposter syndrome and how do we get over it?

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:16:11] I think about imposter syndrome. As something that is useful to a certain point, it's useful in that if you have it, you will naturally be like, I got to do certain things to make sure I stay good at my craft and my work. So it actually can drive you to be better. But what happens is imposter syndrome can also start you because if you get presented with an opportunity you don't think you're good enough, you might walk away from it. And absolutely, you can be transformative. Like my TED talk. Imposter syndrome for women, especially like it's debilitating in that it's the reason why we don't ask for raises reason why we don't ask for the number that we want because we're afraid that we're not worth it. We're afraid of people's. No, we're afraid that we have to earn our way into it or that we haven't earned our way into it. We're constantly trying to earn our way in this world, and I talk about how we all know people who are in positions of power who have no reason to be besides the fact that they're just wildly confident about themselves. They are so confident and they will speak of themselves so highly that they would treat their way into a room. And the people who are qualified, who are good, who practice their work have the nerve to say we're not good enough. And then because we're not speaking of ourselves, high enough other people start to doubt us. So it becomes this wild circle. So I'm always like, all right, let's use impostor syndrome for what it's supposed to do to drive us to be better. But let's drop it after a bit. Let's not let it make us not do the thing, right? Ask for the thing. See the thing. And it's a, I think, imposter syndrome just depend on our careers. You know, at first you might think, Oh, I'm not worth that job, and then you get the job and then you get the raise. All right, cool. Now your career can go up. I think imposter syndrome just changes. Then you go. How do I must do certain things? To sustain my way in this room. And then you end up in a wild grind where you just like I must overwork and it comes with all these things, I just think we need some of the behind.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:18:23] Anica Malabanan, in member of Gwynn and moderator of the Book Club, shared her take on imposter syndrome during our discussion.

 

Anica Malabanan [00:18:31] There's this given moment where I in my head, at least I'm I'm thinking that. I need to be perfect, like I need to do things perfectly, and there's this expectation that I sat with myself, even though I'm very capable of doing my job. If even like the littlest thing triggers me self-doubting myself, that's when that like imposter syndrome comes in, which is kind of weird, because when we have that big group discussion I was talking about like, what is a quality about you? And I think confidence. But that doesn't then turn off the fact that sometimes I will have the imposter syndrome where I don't think I'm capable, which is like a weird balance where you're like competent in one thing, but you still have that self-doubt inside. And I think self-doubt was a big theme that came up in our group discussion.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:19:18] Kelly, Jordan Landy Phillips and Kim Smith join Anica in discussing professional troublemaker, sharing thoughts on confidence, doing too much and change.

 

Anica Malabanan [00:19:27] We also talked about is finding that way to share your confidence, but also still be humble and appear humble and actually to feel humble, but to not let the humbleness like you, your star. I guess for lack of a better way, and that's a great way to to describe that. There's times in our life where we've been felt to feel a little bit smaller, and I think a lot of the themes in this book is to hype us up and say, Now we got to come out of the shell, come out of that fear and really like challenge what's been going on and like Dove Deep.

 

Orlanthia Phillips [00:20:04] We also talked about being too much. I personally made the decision to never use that phrase again. And Brooke, who was also in the room, she contemplated that with dealing with a young woman in her life, her niece. I have a daughter who's 13, and she's at that age where they're dramatic in our role and in doing all this. What you say something? And how could you say, you know what? You want too much? Go sit down. I want to hear that too much, you too much. And and instead of saying that someone is too much anymore or they are too some, you're too dramatic to listen to extra because that was my other nickname for her extra. And instead of saying words that could be mistruth for her to be less than what she is or to shrink down in the future and to dumb herself down, and that be all she is. I have made the commitment to never say that somebody is too much or too something if there is a behavior that needs to be addressed and we're going to address that behavior. For instance, you know what? You're not going to speak, talk back to your mom. We're going to address that behavior and talking back, and that's not acceptable. But I'm not going to say this year too much. I want her to speak out when something is wrong. We want her to speak. I want her to absolutely not let somebody bully her and run over her one day. So we were talking about that in our group. How, yeah, we're going to make the distinction now of addressing the behavior without putting that label on someone.

 

Tiffany Hammond [00:21:41] One of the things that we really honed in on was a part in growing loud for a wildly where she says change is not optional, it's less necessary and perpetual go to that can break our hearts, make us scream, thrill us. It will challenge us and sometimes make us wonder if we can make it past the pains of it all. And I think that kind of just explains everything about this book in every different aspect of it. It's all about change, and we have to realize that it's not optional. We have to just go with the flow and do what's necessary to change in a good way.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:22:16] Returning to the interview, I asked Levi to talk about her writing process.

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:22:21] Writing a book takes clarity on what you want to say because you see a book through all these pages and sometimes you're tempted to talk about a thousand things but really need to have a core. And I start every book writing process with the thesis statement. My first book, I'm judging the do better manual. My thesis statement was We are all ridiculous and we got to find ways to do better at being humans. The thesis of this book is to do better and to do better at being a human. You don't have to do some scary things. You're going to have to make some good trouble. Here's how. So I do that. From there, I write the outline, which is really a brainstorming session with myself. What are all the things that I want to put in there? And I just make it rough and there find the patterns and I break it up, and then I write my book proposal, which will include. My outline now, deeper chapter summaries of each thing. How would market the book, what is this book going to be called? And actually my book proposal, says the firefighter manual. So my UK copy of the book is called the firefighter manual. When the U.S., we going with the professional troublemaker, the firefighter manuals and tagline. And then you go into your own bay in writes. Over months, some people do years. I wrote my first book in five months. I wrote this one in four and then you edit because draft one. To exist and needs to be poor, but it needs to exist, that's the job, and then you have an editor who actually breaks it apart. And sometimes that they just make it, they make it seem so. Yeah, the machine of a book and writing it all, it's all tied. But it starts with be clear about what I want to say.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:24:12] How do you get that clarity, honestly?

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:24:14] What are the things that are that jump out at you? Start there? For me, my clarity came in. I get clarity in different moments, like I brought this book into three sections, but they do because I like frameworks. Then I broke into chapters like I write, there's an app that I love called Scrivener. That is really great for writing big pieces of things like scripts and books and whatever it is that allows you kind of put it all on paper and then when you're done, you figure out what doesn't fit. Write it all down. You don't have to figure out what fits and what doesn't. Until the end of it. And then you start deleting chapters if you want to and saying that doesn't fit, then you pull that out.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:24:59] That's fair. As we close, what advice do you have for those that may be on the fence about becoming professional troublemakers or that may be exhausted?

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:25:07] I hope this book gives somebody permission to speak up in the meeting, you know, because their jobs by being in the room is to make sure that the room is elevated. You can be on the margins and still dream audaciously because I'm a testament of why dreams come true. My hope is that those who have not been doing much decide to spend this moment to rise up and do something and make impact. So those who have been doing all the work can chill for a bit. You know, self-care is sometimes saying no. And maybe that looks like sitting it out for a bit. But listen, the world needs your troublemaking. The world needs you to find some energy after you recharge to come back and speak up. For those who don't have the same voice and platform and access as you and just know that you are a part of a community of troublemakers. For me, what I actually want for this book is to empower a million people to be troublemakers, so the people who are tired can take a nap for a day and trouble keeps going for the greater good.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:26:08] Let's go. Let's be professional troublemakers for ourselves and for the greater good. Lovey. Thank you so much for meeting with us today.

 

Luvvie Ajayi Jones [00:26:16] Thank you for having me.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:26:19] And that's a wrap for this episode. I hope you are inspired and that you get a copy of Professional Troublemaker over the holidays. Many thanks to you for rocking with me and until next time, keep it authentic all day, every day. Special thanks to our squad. Sarah Black, Denise Busch, Jermaine Dallas, Satyen Dayal and Trisch Smith. Authentic 365 is brought to you by Edelman.

Defining Authenticity Round Table Discussion

EPISODE 1 – DEFINING AUTHENTICITY  

Authenticity has no formula or a singular definition—that's why it's so powerful. Tune in to our global squad of Edelman hosts as they define what authenticity means to them and share how they break barriers and bring their full selves to work every day.  

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:01] It's who you are at work after hours and back at home. Exploring every layer, finding out what makes you uniquely you and letting that shine back out into the world. It's authentic 365, a podcast that takes a glimpse into how some of the most inspiring people among us express themselves and make magic happen. I'm your host, Dani Jackson Smith, VP at Edelman by day, community enthusiast and lover of the people always. Hola good people. This is our first episode and our first roundtable discussion. I'm so excited to have our international co-host DeliciaTan, Rafael Franco and Jermaine Dallas on deck as we discuss defining authenticity. What's up, everybody?

 

Rafael Franco [00:00:45] Hello.

 

Delicia Tan [00:00:46] Hi, everyone.

 

Jermaine Dallas [00:00:46] Hey.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:47] So I got the idea to create this podcast because authenticity and the pursuit of authenticity create space for our humanity, often showing us how we're more alike than we are different. And tapping into what it means personally, professionally, in the moment and even over time. But what does it really mean to be authentic? Let's kick off with each of us sharing a bit about ourselves and our take on authenticity. Del, let's start with you.

 

Delicia Tan [00:01:13] Hi, I'm Alicia, and I'm based here in sunny Singapore. I am the managing director of client growth and innovation and a proud eighth generation Singaporean. For me, authenticity has always been a challenge. I've grappled with reconciling Asian values with who I am as an individual. Primarily because as I was growing up, I was always thought to be myself. However, the Asian values of collectivism and supporting the community may not exactly be in that wheelhouse. So for me, something I've grappled with, but my definition of authenticity is really about a person who acts in accordance with their own desires, motives, ideals or beliefs, and also is able to express who she really is.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:02:01] Yes, Del, I can relate to your definition of authenticity, and I look so forward to hearing more about what it means to really be eighth generation Singaporean. Jermaine, what are your thoughts?

 

Jermaine Dallas [00:02:14] So I am Jermaine based in London and I am a senior writer. Is my job title in my day job at Edelman. And in terms of authenticity, I think I would describe it as your ability to be yourself and every which way possible. And for me, it's about not having to wear a mask. I think if you are and yourself and in this the same sort of person in the different settings and you don't feel like you have to wear some sort of mask and have some sort of veneer over over who you really are. I think that's the real definition of authenticity.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:03:00] Right on drop the mask drop the veneers be the same person in different settings. Raf, what are your thoughts?

 

Rafael Franco [00:03:10] I'm Rafael. I'm work in the San Paolo office in Brazil. I'm a senior account executive in the Brant area, one of the leaders of the D&I group here, and cisgender gay white male. When I came out sixteen years ago, it was a very different time. More prejudiced society. It took a while for me to tell my parents, but the hardest part was to accept myself. And when I did that, it wasn't one of the moments when I felt authentic. And so that's why authenticity is strongly linked to my gay self. I could say that. And but in general, I can say that authenticity is the freedom to bring your whole self to everywhere you go to express yourself as you wish to not limit your thoughts, your speech. But always respecting others as well. If you don't limit their chance to be authentic as well.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:04:09] You can't see me when I'm over here taking notes because you are dropping as what we were, say jewels. Key elements that people should tune into, right? So giving people space to be their whole self, right, who you are, who I am may not be exactly the same. And that's OK. I have to give you some room, give you some space. I googled authentic, and the definition that comes up is genuine. And mindtools.com also knows that being authentic is being true to your own personality, values and spirit. For me, authenticity shows up when I'm aligned with my internal motivation. I find that that changes over time, right? As I change over time, my aspirations change and my motivations also shift. So I can't be my authentic self trying to align to the Dani that was 15 years old. Wow. Of course, I still have core values that remain intact. I say that to say that tuning into my inner voice and getting aligned with who I say I am at this moment is vital to me actually being authentic and living authentically leaning into what Raf shared. How do each of you describe your authentic vibe? Meaning this is who I am wherever I go. And in any setting,

 

Delicia Tan [00:05:33] I'm happy to jump in on that one. And you know, quite interestingly, I do find that I'm a lot more of my authentic self in the workplace because I am my own person. I don't have the responsibilities of being daughter or wife or cat mom. And in that sense, I find that working with people who have an open mindset and working within the workplace or working towards a common goal and sharing our challenges as well as our triumphs, enables me to really live up to my full potential. My team knows my FY22 or my financial plan was a Taylor Swift themed presentation, so again, I'm pleased to see that I'm able to live plans authentic self in the workplace.

 

Jermaine Dallas [00:06:17] I think for for me, I think I have to make a conscious effort sometimes because I think when you are joining a big company, you want to fit in. And it's really easy to think that in order for me to fit in, I have to be like everyone else and do the same things and think the same things. But a lot of the time, that's not really what you are hired for. So for me, authenticity is bringing that your full self and and really bringing what makes you unique to work. So sometimes it's an effort. I have to really make myself do that because it's not always straightforward, but when when I do nail it, when I when I do feel really comfortable, I think that's where I'm able to be myself and be my best self at work.

 

Rafael Franco [00:07:21] Yeah, totally. When I, when I was a child or a teenager, I was. It was not really easy to be my true self, to be authentic. When I find out that I might be gay, I had a prejudice mind myself. So I thought it was wrong to be effeminate, for example, and I tried to conceal any glimpse of movement that could be seen as feminine. And this has made some permanent marks in myself that I still carry with me. And so when I entered the workplace, I could. It was the first place where I could be myself, because in communications, usually you are more accepted. So I felt more vulnerable to show more parts of myself. And but now I'm in the moment when at work and I can be truly authentic. I'm my whole self. And but as I focus so much at work during the last two years. And I think that is one of the reasons that I was concealing myself. I open at work, so I felt comfortable at work. So I focused most part of my life to my work. And then now I'm in another journey to find my true self, my authentic self, on my personal life as well. And when you face prejudice is against sexuality, ethnicity or any of any other thing, I think is hard to to find your authenticity as a whole and our, as you said, any our authenticity changes over time as well because you're not the same today as you are like 20 years ago. So it changes and prejudice certainly have a great impact in that.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:09:15] Absolutely. Prejudice, discrimination and all the isms, racism, sexism, ageism, Abel ism, they all impact what it takes for us to show up authentically. We live in this world where these things exist and persist, so we must acknowledge that being authentic in spite of our surroundings or societal pressures really take something. Back in 2010, I got my first full time job as an associate producer. I recall a more senior black producer pulling me aside and encouraging me, but also sort of warning me not to become the black producer known for predominantly pitching black directors. This conversation disgusted me because I was certain my white colleagues were not getting schooled or how many white companies or directors to pitch. I'm born in Chicago, South Side and West Side, lived in New York, had been in the music industry, entertainment industry and had an array of contacts. So I felt like I was ultimately being asked to leave a part of who I was at the door in order to fit in. I'm sure this person meant well, but they had a case of respectability politics that would have me be more concerned with fitting in than pitching the diverse gamut of talent that I knew would be best for creative and for our clients. Luckily, I didn't listen. I pitched all sorts of people and, you know, I owe that to my upbringing. So shout out to my parents and my grandparents, but also to the tribe I had cultivated and created in Chicago and in New York through the 4A's multicultural internship program and through ADCOLOR. You know, when we come in as a community or when we know we have a community, we also feel more empowered to be our authentic selves.

 

Delicia Tan [00:11:07] For me, I think those are points where I kind of questioned my authentic self. I've had the good fortune of living in Australia and living in China as well. And for me, that's when I started to really question what my authentic self really was in Australia as a young student. I came to understand what it meant to be othered, to be Asian and to be a part of that minority group, whereas I was very sheltered from that for most of my childhood. Right. And really, I was very privileged in the first I would say 10 years of my formal education and going to Australia was a real challenge to then make sure that people heard you. Make sure that people didn't put you in a in a certain box or categorize you based on a stereotype. And what was interesting was that when I moved to China about six years ago, the challenge there was that people were like, You are Asian, but you're not like us, you're not Chinese. And the whole time I would get questions up. Where is your old family home? You know, where are you from? And I'm like, I'm from Singapore, right? And and it was there that I truly discovered that I'm Asian, but not that Asian, and I'm my kind of Asian. And if I remove the Asian level, I am just who I am.

 

Jermaine Dallas [00:12:29] And if for me, I can, I can relate to that because I'm used to, especially growing up in the the north of England in the 90s, when there wasn't that sort of spread of diversity that you would find now. I'm very much used to being in a minority or being the only black person in a particular situation. So whether that was at school, I was the only the only black kid. And even in professional settings, a lot of the time, I am very much in the minority and sometimes I feel there's a temptation to feel like you have to because you are the only black person. Sometimes you feel like you are the the representative of all black people, which is quite a big, big responsibility to put on yourself. And and I think that's that's on me. I think sometimes it's it's that it's like, why am I doing this to myself? Why am I putting myself in that situation? Because then it's it's like, am I doing the things that I personally want to do and saying the things I personally want to do? Or am I sort of being this being that the stereotype of being the things that I think people want me to say because of who I am? And so I think it's really important for me. I found it's really important to make sure that I am just me and my my background and all those are the things feed into who I am, but I have to just make sure that I am a representative of Jermaine, not the representative of all black people or all northern is all or whatever the case may be.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:14:09] Snap in my fingers over here because you drop in jewls Jermaine. I love that you say that I have to be the representative of Jermaine. So for me, I have to be the representative of Dani rather than all black women because we are not a monolith. That has me thinking about the saying. There is nothing new under the sun. When we talk about our uniqueness or being true to ourselves, we have to understand that what we call self has been conditioned by the world around us, the people around us, the society that we live in. Sometimes we are putting on and taking off identities based on how they serve us. For example, when I was 13 years old, I had made a declaration in my mind, at least, that I was not going to embrace anything else girly. So no more. Flowers, no more dresses, no more pinks, no purples. I prefer my baseball caps and baggy overalls. I prefer to hang out with the boys listening to hip hop. Wu-Tang Clan, Chicago, crucial conflict, et cetera, et cetera, because I want it to be respected. And while I didn't want to be a boy, I thought it was better for me to embrace the personas like Queen Latifah, M.C. like Mary J. Blige left die. You know, those women had a big impact on me. I wanted to be more like them than the girls I saw dancing in the music videos. And while I was attracted to boys, I found it safer for myself to downplay my physical assets, to downplay my femininity and gain respect with meaningful relationships, meaningful friendships and a lot less attention that left me being guarded by guys. As I got older, I started to realize that I created a persona to protect myself. But I was really creating a prison for myself and that I really did love dresses and makeup and colorful wigs and looking fly just as much as I love my baseball caps and my overalls, so I had to grow into a new, authentic me.

 

Delicia Tan [00:16:12] I can totally relate, Dani. That's because I'm an only child, and I always used to joke that I am my father's son and my mother's daughter, primarily because my father was in the military service for a very large part of his life. So, you know, I'd be there wearing daddy's beret, you know, playing with his boots. But at the same time, I'd be sneaking into my mom's cosmetic pouch, putting on lipstick and her high heels. So again, you know that there's that idea of who do I want to be when I grow up. In my culture because I said I was eight generation Singaporean what we call peranakans, which means Chinese that are born in this part of the world, southeast Asia. And our culture for some reason is very matriarchal, which is why my grandmother was a very clear steering influence in my life. And what was very interesting to me and relate it to your story, Dani, was that my grandmother would often chase someone like me out of the kitchen saying that you're not meant to be here. You were made for bigger things. And you know, that would mean getting into the boats know. And my grandmother was considered modern because she was slacks instead of a traditional sorrel, for instance. So that idea of, you know, taking on the masculine roles and I always wanted to be exactly like my father. You know, I would practice, you know, military drills in the living room. And to me, you know, following that masculine example was about claiming that power back, you know, as opposed to to being in the kitchen all the time. So I totally relate. I'm with you. I was into the overalls and baseball caps. I still am, you know, that's probably who I am today.

 

Rafael Franco [00:17:55] It's interesting because for me, sexism is the core of every prejudice, I guess because of prejudice, gender prejudice. Or even if you say against gay people, for example, it's it's wrong to be gay because it's feminine. So to look like a woman, to sound like a woman, it's wrong. So it it's the core prejudice of all, I guess. And as I said, I conceal my my feminine movements or gestures. When I was young and at school, I didn't like to play football or soccer, depending on where you are. So those classes were like tortured to me, I hated. And as a whole, I try to skip school on that day. And then I started to find my true self when I was up, when I was around 20 years old, when I went out to my first gay club and I tried to, oh, this is a world that I can live in. And then after a while when it is, I have a travel blog focused on the LGBTQ+ Community, and this was the first of a kind in Brazil. And so this gave gave me some visibility. What put me in a position where usually I was the only gay guy around as Jermaine was, say, saying, and this is it's quite risky to for you to become a token. So you are the gay guy. You are the black guy, the black girl, you're the Asian girl, and you have to represent everyone. So it's confusing when you have to define, OK, this is a part of me. I am a gay guy, so it's something that it's part of me. But at the same time, I don't relate to every gay stereotype and I don't feel connected to. I don't know. I can. I can be. People can swear at me if I say that I don't watch, for example, RuPaul's Drag Race, I don't follow that much, so this is not a part of me, but I respect and they like the culture, but I don't relate to every single aspect of being a gay men of what a gay men look like to the society. So it's quite risky to become a token for my opinion.

 

Jermaine Dallas [00:20:17] And I think that I think the important thing is that we shouldn't feel like we we have to sort of be that gay guy or that black guy or whatever the case may be. And I think that that that pressure can be can be dangerous at times. But yeah, I think we are really, really complex human beings. And and I think we should sort of embrace and appreciate our complexity and because that those those stereotypes really lack nuance and complexity, that they're very simple because that they exist to sort of help people categorize and people and based on one aspects of who they are. But I think when when you appreciate that the the the complexity of who people are and embrace that for who you are, I think it really it does a lot to help us show up authentically and wherever we are.

 

Delicia Tan [00:21:26] You took the words right out of my mouth to and set them even much better than I. I definitely could. Yeah, and I completely agree with you. I wish you could see my snaps right now about you snapping furiously. That's primarily because, you know, people are lazy in general and by codifying certain behaviors or codifying stuff, then people, it makes it so much easier to then go through life. But again, if you peel the layers of the onion to really get to that authentic core, you'll be so much richer for the experience, which is why I think, you know, that's oftentimes a reminder to myself as well to not just say, Oh, this person is like this or has this role, and therefore I need to react to this person in with this.

 

Rafael Franco [00:22:14] Yet there's something important to say that we all have prejudice. It's part of our nature, is part of who we are. We have to relate situations with things that we have lived. So we have great Concepted ideas of everything. The important thing is to think about it, just to sit on that and say, this is something that I should be thinking. This is something that it's connected to the truth or is just something that I created to protect myself because it's important that I don't know if you go on a hike and you have to have certain quick thoughts to protect yourself. So this is life we can. We don't have a way to forbid that to happen. I don't know if I'm speaking the right words here because my authentic self is Latino. So English is not my, my native native language, but you have to be. You have to have this preconception ideas, but you have to think over that and see if it connects to real life.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:23:28] I completely agree. And so, you know, another way to frame that up is to have bias is to be human, right? And so the more we're in tune with what our biases are, the more we have the opportunity to avoid discrimination and to tap into our own authentic identity. With that being said, I know we're almost that time and I want to ask a little bit of a fun question if authenticity was a piece of wearable fashion, what would it be for you?

 

Jermaine Dallas [00:23:59] I think that for me, my sort of wearable representation of who I am would probably be quite bizarrely, a pair of slippers because I think that one thing that people often say about me and I think I start to realize that is true is that I'm quite a laidback personality and I really don't like to stress myself out or get to set up about things that I don't really have control over. So I think that's a big part of who I am and and I'm owning it because it's I think it's really helped me to to stay, to stay cool in high pressure situations.

 

Rafael Franco [00:24:45] I think we have different authentic identities. I can be authentic at work and be authentic at home, and they are just different from each other and just parts of me that I wanted to show in and in this show is to show just a part of myself consciously. It's to be authentic as well, and as I said, it was authenticity was a wearable fashion item. I guess it would be a men's skirt because some people will judge you for wearing. Other people will admire you for the same reason. But in the in the end, what matters is that you're comfortable. So I would say a men's skirt is the is the item that I would choose for that

 

Delicia Tan [00:25:32] if I were a piece of wearable fashion, I would be something that I wear almost every day, which is a bandana that shows the little bit of the repressed rocker side of me. I secretly wear them to client meetings as a nice little side scarf under my blazer. Or, you know, if we're out and about, I wear it as a hat headband. And to me, exactly what Raf was saying, right? It's about this idea that you can be authentic and yet many different versions of yourself, which is why, for me, the band that is really iconic, I was a massive Ross fan growing up, Jimmy, and I think I'm dating myself there. You're probably too young to remember Ross, but essentially I remember, you know? OK, great. I don't feel so long in the tooth now. But yeah, you know, to me that that was the idea of British pop rebellion. Well, now you guys have evolved in certain ways, but the key thing is that the bandana means a lot to me. I could be in Hell's Kitchen at one moment and the next, you know, really be a posh French lady, if you will. So again, I love the idea that we can be authentic, multifaceted sounds and different people in different situations and still be yourself.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:26:49] I love that. Look, if I am a piece of authentic wearable fashion, I am going to be a hoodie. Classic, comfortable saving grace, rain, hail, snow. The hoodie is the place where I go to for protection almost, you know? So that's me. One last question before we get out of here, and that's what advice would you give to your younger self regarding being authentic?

 

Jermaine Dallas [00:27:18] So when I hit 30, I read an article about what happens to people when they hit 30. And one of the things I remember the article saying is that you really start to own who you are and not care as much about what other people think. Because I think prior to that, there's a lot of pressure and there was with with me as well to really get everyone onside and get everyone to like you. And so I think the advice I would give to my younger self is to be confident about who I am and the right people will like you because you'll never be for everyone anyway. So I think why? Why make things difficult by pretending to be something that you're not? So I think I would advise my younger self to just be myself.

 

Delicia Tan [00:28:12] I think building on on what Jermaine said and being yourself. When my younger self actually had a lot of guidance along the way from my grandmother who told me I shouldn't be a member of ever, I couldn't be Gladys Knight because I had no pits on my auntie and said, You know, you shouldn't wear your Amex ninety fives all the time. You know, that's not lady like. I would tell my younger self that, you know, that's a lot of well-meaning advice, but you know, I still turned out OK. So again, it's kind of cool to be different and kind of cool to want to be different things and really go on that journey of self-discovery. As long as at the end of the day, you know that you take care of number one, which is really yourself, and you can be proud of what you've achieved after all of that. So there you go.

 

Rafael Franco [00:29:00] Well, I'm a person who loves self-knowledge, self-discovery. I love to search my true self every single day and bring it to the table. And this is what makes my my vital force every day. And it's an endless journey that I love to be is always rewarding, although it's not always easy. So it's a process, right? So I wouldn't. To be honest, I wouldn't tell anything that to my younger self to change it the way I saw life, because this made me who I am today. I wouldn't. I would maybe just say, like, keep an eye on being authentic. This will be important in your life from now on. But I would not like change. I needed to go through. Some things should be who I am today, and I'm very proud to be myself today, so I wouldn't say much. I wouldn't give spoilers. I'm not as. Spoiler guy,

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:30:00] I love that no spoilers. I'm with you, I wouldn't change anything per se, but I would tell myself to enjoy the quiet spaces, get to know yourself and listen. Just be quiet and be still and listen to yourself so that you can actually recognize your authentic voice. With that, we are at time, guys. Thank you so much.

 

Delicia Tan [00:30:28] It's been awesome.

 

Dani Jackson Smith [00:30:31] And that's a wrap for this episode. Many thanks to you for walking with us. And until next time, keep it authentic all day. Every day. Shout out to our team behind the scenes Faith McIver, Emma Marie MacAfee, Trisch Smith, Denise Busch, Sarah Neil, Pamela Blandon, Emma Dowling, Ryan VandenBosch. Authentic 365 is brought to you by global communications firm Edelman.